dbl Jai Ma!

 

 

Hi friends, just take a look to this essay... http://www.cit-sakti.com/kundalini/sahaja-spontaneous-yoga.htm Warm regards

Zorro

Pasito a pasito,Todo quiere ser querido.

...by the toxic, ego-driven double talk of Sharon Gannon. She spoke of the ideals of love, compassion, and seeing others in our selves as if she lives by these tenets... ... and then in the next breath ridiculed and verbally attack Daniel Pinchbeck and members of the audience. I was also surprised at how many of her "yogi followers" were rooting her on as she lashed out at Pinchbeck when he expressed opinions like humans are more evolved on a concious level than cows and a human life just might have a bit more value. Crazy talk, right...? They say meat eaters are aggresive but there's nothing more vicious than a protein starved vegan on a rant. Pinchbeck made some very thoughtful remarks when Gannon paused between her hollow, unoriginal spewings... But he really nailed it right at the top when he asked her about her thoughts on how western yogic schools often lead not to any higher ideals but actually inflate the ego of the practioners towards a path of elitism. His question obviously had a ripple effect through Gannon's bloated, engorged ego because from there on it went on the attack for her. What followed was so repulsive that my girlfriend and I left immediately to escape the dark and toxic energy that had began to spiral out from Gannon's core. Reality Sandwich - I'm a big fan but PLEASE don't ever let that bitch contribute any more dribble to this site and for GOODNESS SAKE don't associate yourselves with Jivamukti. That place gives me the fucking creeps.

maybe it's just my libra talking, but i can see both sides of a single coin. i feel like the unfortunate part of ms. gannon's egoic "down dressing" toward the member of the audience who attempted get the discussion "back on track" was the fact that she's in a leadership position. the words are indeed hollow when not coming from the state of consciousness that they espouse, but that doesn't mean they can't also kick start transformation in any given individual. i just think it's important to recognize that you're coming from a position outside of enlightenment when you're discussing the topic analytically. if you don't you might tend to come off as hypocritical as thus spurn the very "audience" you're trying to reach.

that having been said, it does seem counterproductive to hurl invective, though i believe that a general discussion on what may have went "wrong" (i picked up some ugly vibes as well) could be of use for the purpose evolving evolver.

on the other hand, the folks i went with and i were gratefully heartened by the prospect that, having attended a social endeavor from a community that is still in relative youth, "hey we can do this in boston." so yeah, i dig the merging of social spirituality and the arts for consciousness shifting and awakeness. thanks all.

 

www.organelle.org

www.truetao.org

...was really put off by sharon's double-speak and hostility toward her audience and Daniel Pinchbeck. She was so quick to criticize (and, apparently, to JUDGE) those who eat McDonalds, or those who have not studied the Gita "extensively"... I think some of her followers confuse her smugness and self-satisfaction with enlightenment. I was appalled by her egocentricity and her unwillingness to engage in a meaningful dialogue. I understand that animals are precious beings but I do NOT agree that we can fix humanity by "saving the animals" so to speak. That is an asburd thought. I don't think we can possibly hope to know how to treat animals in a TRULY humane way if we can't even treat ourselves with compassion and dignity. Sharon implied that the demise of the human race began with the subjugation of animals... I would beg to differ. I also have a real problem with her response to the "turn the other cheek" issue. Run away? Go inside? To me this really implies a sickly unwillingness to CONFRONT, to be present in conflict, to hold and acknowledge that adverse energy which is a TOTALLY natural part of life and being. That all having been said, it was a lovely evening in other respects and I was happy to see so many kind, smiling faces. As a parting thought -- why isn't the Jivamukti cafe vegan?

The unique thing about the party last night was that two seemingly different crowds came together and got to know one another, shared some space, shared some dialogue, and shared some love.

I thought that the conversation contained many moments of ego, both on the part of the audience members and the speakers. I was impressed by things that were said by both Daniel and Sharon AND the audience members. The bottom line is that none of us are above acting from a place of ego, and we can all work on that in different, personal ways.

In the meantime, the dialogue was fruitful for me. I had to sit with difficult feelings about myself, about spirituality, and about two people I admire for different reasons. The coalescence of a visionary community can only ever happen in the moment.

IF there was stress last night, that doesn't mean there is now, for me, right here. I believe that turning within, turning the other cheek, running away, standing up, it all has its place.

Not because theoretically all things are relative but because all of these do in fact happen. Therefore their theoretical value, to me, is good insofar as they are actually occurring. And last night they both occurred, and those of us who like it to be one way or another, or found ourselves in one temporal location over the other, might have been a bit shaken by one or the other.

 

But the point of yoga or Ayahuasca, things I have several years of experience with respectively, is, as both D and S said, to open up new spaces, within and without. I think new spaces were opened up last night, not for a collective that I can speak for, but for a space within me.

 

I was opened up, and I will take this new space with me and occupy it in a way that opens up spaces in the world outside of me. Blessing both spaces and bowing my head for the mystery and challenge of being.

 

Thank you Daniel and Sharon for your hearts. You are loved by  people who are seeking more love, within and without. Let's have more dialogue, even when it hurts our collective muscles to stretch out!

 

My only regret was that we couldn't have gone a little longer!  

 

Adam Elenbaas

i remember going to a satsong group in Santa Cruz they had a man called Hari Das, it was a little like going to Hari Krishna free feeds, but this was a meeting on sunday with chanting and pranayama and then questions and answers, Hari Das only wrote his answers on a chalk board.I remember seeing some of the Hari Das followers around town like some of the Gopi girls, that hung around the group and there were a few big guys that were like his body guards.I don't mean to put anything down, i liked going to the satsong and doing pranayama, and chanting shiva shiva shamboo shankara, but sometimes i just could not help but feel the holier then thou vibs of some of the followers.It's all about the strangeness of american kids doing the east India thing.

As far as the animal thing, what about the untouchable thing? i think i was an untouchable more life times then not.

All around Invaluable experience. While Sharon's focus seemed less than effective in manifesting my own expectations, I do hope that her compassion for animals and Daniels addressing the source, at the least, opened some doors for discussion, they continue to walk hand in hand as far as Im concerned. While walking through the yoga studio these ears had the fortune of picking up some bits from various conversations from some interesting folks. This tounge had the opportunity to pallate some great tea while being further over-stimulated by some truely incredible artists. The rooms were filled with the sweet aroma of sage and every elbow, foot or other-wise invasive extremity that found it's way into my personal little bubble was met either with an appology or just a general shared sense of "it aint no thang". There was something in the event that is still with me. A resonance that I hope to carry for as long as I can. And yes, high-sourcery, I would love to put on an edutaining experience in Boston, something closer to home that consumed less of my humble resources, I would start by gaugeing interest and rallying for involvment.  Ive got approximately 5 years of promotions and general event co-ordinations experience from working in Bostons nightlife/entertainment field, all of which is still ripe for harvesting.   There's definately no lack of enthusiasm as we witnessed at the evolver event.  Keep in touch.   gratitude and peace

Its seems a little silly to blast Sharon Gannon in support of your fearless leader Daniel Pinchbeck. Daniel Pinchbeck and Sharon Gannon are both friends and mutual supporters. Jivamukti sells Daniel's books in the boutique. Daniel is a frequent visitor and yogi at the Jivamukti Yoga School. I have seen him eat at the cafe many times. (And yes, it is vegan!). Sharon and Daniel were quite successful in their talk as they absolutely intended to be provocative. They obviously scheduled this event by consulting with each other. Don't you think they had an idea of what the talk would lead to? Its great that some of you got pissed off. What's the point of preaching to the choir?

I wasn't at the event you guys you guys are referencing. However, according to WNB's comments about Pinchback's questions, I would like to make a few arguements.

 

If Pinchback's arguements were aimed at the justification of factory farming, then it doesn't seem as if he has much of an enviornmental leg to stand on. Even if we remove the ethical issue of meat consumption, and the suffering of other "lesser" animals, we are still left with the health risks and enviornmental havoc which result from large industrial farms. When a North Carolina pig farm's sewage system leaked into the water supply, I'd say those "more consciously evolved" beings were rather upset. I'd say those Brittish guys who consumed a touch of the Mad Cow Disease were negatively impacted. From world hunger... to clear cutting forrests... to the mercury in my fish, humans are impacted by producing and consuming meat.

 

My point here is that the current practices of producing meat are non-sustainable and detrimental to humans as well. It seems like the negative aspects of meat should be pretty evident. But, that's just my little opinion. Thanks!

After the Evolver event one week ago I wrote this very crude remark about Sharon Gannon and Jivamukti. After reflection, I feel it was wrong to be so critical of her and to use such vulgarities to express myself in a public forum. My apologies to Sharon and realitysandwich.

Apology accepted by me, on behalf of all RS staffers. (smiles) Not sure if I can do that?! haha I was unsettled after the panel as well. Sometimes we say things we regret later. Its big of you to apologize, and you were right in your own way to feel unsettled about the talk. peace-- Adam Elenbaas

now?

The first time went to Jivamukti, I had veganism shoved down my throat. The second time was no different. Can we please move beyond this limited dialogue?? I cannot submit to Ms. Gannon as an authority spiritual or otherwise, when she recites the same mantra over and over again. Yoga has become big business in NYC, and I have the impression that she is just capitalizing on the latest spiritual/fitness trend. I left EVOLVER feeling like I had entered into a contrived Disneyland. This all too American assimilation of spirituality, politics, entertainment, and profit, offers nothing original or inspiring in my opinion. Yogis are the new bourgeoisie. Rather than offer me a yoga class to promote your business, why not donate some money to an organization that is actually getting its hands dirty to effect real change, like www.risingtidenorthamerica.org? I would have felt much better about my $20 spent. Thank you anyway to all those who are seeking to turn a page.

I think that they way that yoga is used as a tool of capitalism is disenchanting, yes. However, the true practice of yoga is one of resistence, peace, and respect. When one says they practice yoga, they typically mean asanas. However, asanas are but one of the many facets of yoga. Giving to others, or service, is another practice therefore I think that shesravingmad is actually asking that we practice yoga. Balance is key. Balancing what is beneficial for one's own self and the rest of the community is an individual endeavor. Hopefully, we're all seeking out the best way to do that in our own lives. Thanks

I am not a vegetarian or a yoga practioner, but I was very impressed with what Sharron had to say at Evolver on these subjects.

Some video of the conversation will soon be available.

One thing I did find disturbing was Daniel's seeming embrace of violence in order to promote world transformation. Is there anytime in history that a violent revolution has brought about a utopian state? Ever?

Anything obtained through bloodshed can only be retained by more bloodshed.

The Practice of Non-Violence

Dear Daniel, you have stated: “I believe that the principle of ahimsa cannot be applied to our present (world) situation. Violence against oppression is justified in certain cases, whether Jews against Nazis or Native Americans against the US Army. In fact, there are, I propose, negative karmic effects in not opposing domination, when the dominator force represents a predatory virus whose effects are universal across the world. Yoga philosophy may have to be amended in our contemporary context.”

May I respond: The teaching of yoga as found in Patanjali’s yoga sutra does not say that violence is wrong or right or good or bad or justified or not. Patanjali does not pass a value judgment on any action for its own sake. He speaks to those who seek enlightenment; to those who want to disentangle themselves from the cycle of birth and death. To them he says choose your actions wisely, according to the results they will bring, be sure that those results are in alignment with your aims.

A yogi is someone who is not so much interested in being “right” as they are interested in being “free”. One can (and many do) justify violence from a perspective of being right: If someone has hurt you, you can feel justified in retaliating, lashing out. Or when someone drives a plane into the World Trade Center, you along with most Americans may feel completely justified in engaging in some type of revenge. When push comes to shove, habits are hard to break….and so the world goes round and round and round…. In Sanskrit this is referred to as the wheel of samsara, which literally means same (sam) suffering (sara) over and over again.

A yogi is someone who is committed to moksha, which is freedom from this cycle of karma. One begins on that journey to liberation by ceasing to react to outer symptoms and instead directing one’s actions toward discovering the causes of the obstacles to freedom.

The author, Gregory David Roberts, spent time in India, locked up in one of the worst prisons in the world, notorious for it’s filthy conditions and violent sadistic brutality inflicted upon it’s incarcerated prisoners. From his experiences GDR wrote a book titled, Shantaram, (which is a Sanskrit word meaning, man of peace.) The following excerpt is from chapter one.

"It took me a long time and most of the world to learn what I know about love and fate and the choices we make, but the heart of it came to me in an instant, while I was chained to a wall and being tortured. I realized, somehow, through the screaming in my mind, that even in that shackled, bloody helplessness, I was free: free to hate the men who were torturing me, or to forgive them. It doesn't sound like much, I know. But in the flinch and bite of the chain, when it's all you've got, that freedom is a universe of possibility. And the choice you make, between hating and forgiving, can become the story of your life."—GDR

Using Violence against violence:

In your comments you not only cite historical situations in which violence was used in order to right a wrong you also justify the violence: when you say:“….I would argue that the partisans of Spain, the fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto, the US Army against the Nazis, the Native Americans against the colonialists, etcetera, did not create negative karma, but moved closer to liberation through their actions…”

In response to that statement, I must ask, “what do you mean by liberation?” Has the world been liberated? Has the war been won? Are we all free? Is there peace on earth? Apparently you don’t think that the war has been won and is over, because you are using as the foundation for your “violent means argument” the fact that the world is in dire straits.

It is common practice for generals, soldiers, presidents, murderers, slaughterhouse workers, vivisectionists, and meat eaters to justify violence by rationalizing that it will bring about something good in the end. Many who perpetuate violence against animals say yes it is evil but it is a necessary evil. Necessary for what? When is evil ever really necessary? Can we truly afford its consequences?

The fact is that violence only brings more violence. A mere glance, looking back in history will prove this. Referring to an example you have already given, where violence was used against violence: the Native Americans fought against the invasion of the Europeans, but in the end the Europeans did not leave America, in fact they are still coming. But when we look at the two major non-violent movements of our present era: India’s independence from Britain and the American Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, have to a large extent achieved their goals. But if your goal is to perpetuate more violence, then by all means react to violence with more violence and you will see it will work every time. But if you have another aim in mind; for instance peace or liberation, then your strategy must be more radical as it must address the root cause of the issue. You must ask yourself what actions would result in peace? You must plant the best seeds to achieve your goals. If you want to eat apple pie, you don’t start by planting a pumpkin seed. You must create the kind of karmas, which are “good” for achieving your desired result. And if you are still living in a time-bound reality you must be patient, as there really is no such thing as instant karma; because seeds take time to grow.

“The non-violent approach does not immediately change the heart of the oppressor. It first does something to the hearts and souls of those committed to it. It gives them new self-respect; it calls up resources of strength and courage that they did not know they had. Finally it reaches the opponent and so stirs his conscious that reconciliation becomes a reality.”—MLK,jr

When in the throes of symptoms one easily feels like a victim and can think that the violence is being inflicted upon them. At that time it is difficult to reflect on possible causes, much less to calmly act from a causal place. Most of us react to symptoms, not to causes and in doing so perpetuate the very things we want to be rid of. We attack the common cold with medicines that get rid of the symptoms, but does the cold go away? We view diseases like cancer and heart disease in a similar way by fighting the symptoms of the disease but not addressing the causes of the disease. We say we want an end to terrorism, but who is willing to look in the mirror and see where they themselves may be contributing to terrorism. We say we want peace, but are we willing to live peacefully?

When you brought up, at the Evolver event, the question about what should one do if one is being attacked, I said if you can see the person coming at you as not coming at you but as coming from you, then you can use compassion to absorb him or her back into the emptiness (shunyata) of your own heart. This is the best scenario, but it may be the most difficult. If you turn the other cheek, you perceive yourself as a victim and you perceive the attacker as victimizing you and you set up a situation for that person to incur more karma, which would lead to more violence. So, if you can’t recognize your attacker for who he or she really is and use the weapon of love to forgive and absorb this person into emptiness, then it would be best to admit that you can’t see the situation clearly and do your best to exit. Otherwise your only other option would be to fight back, reacting to violence with more violence. If you choose violence as your option then you insure a future for yourself of more violence. In other words you don’t stop the violence at that moment by attacking or killing your opponent, you only plant more seeds for more violence to be set into motion.

In the example I gave from Gregory David Robert’s experience in prison, he could not physically run away from his oppressors, but he could have reacted with violence by thinking violent thoughts about his tormentors. Instead he realized that if he really wanted to change the course of his life and be free of violence he had to make the first move toward that freedom and he did. He did it by refusing to act violently; instead he used love to shower his tormentors with forgiveness. To meet violence with love usually takes a lot of practice (sadhana).

The Bhagavad Gita addresses this issue. I think I should say something about the Gita because, someone did use it at the Evolver event, to justify killing and my answer to them that night wasn’t received very well and you also bring it up again in our latest discussion. So here, in brief: is the Gita--- In beginning of the story Arjuna, who is a ten-generation-professional soldier is very upset, his mind is unclear he is in a state of anxiety. He tells his friend, Krishna, that he doesn’t want to fight, he wants to quit his job. Krishna tells Arjuna that he can’t quit his job right now, he has to fight because his past karmas have set him up to fight and he doesn’t have any other options at this time. But, Krishna also tells him that if he is really serious about changing his destiny, the course of his life, then he can help him to do that through teaching him yoga. The Bhagavad Gita then unfolds as Krishna gives the various teaching on yoga, karma, shunyata, and love. Krishna tells him that in order to change his life’s path he must first bring himself to a state of equanimity of mind through the practices of yoga and from that place he will be able to perceive himself and others clearly and then he can take the necessary actions which would enable him to quit his job as a soldier. Krishna cautions him about making a life changing decision while in a state of anxiety, as he explains that no lasting positive change can come from actions that are born out of violence, anger or depression. But to alter one’s perception of reality takes time and this is what abyasa (steady practice) means. Consistant steady practice over time brings the desired result. Arjuna had been practicing violence consistently for a long time, now he wants to change and wants instant peace. It doesn’t happen that way. One must unravel one’s entanglements, using abyasa and viaragya (detachment).

 

Let’s backtrack for a moment: An understanding of basic yogic terms like karma,(action) shunyata (emptiness) and pratisthayam (to be established in a particular practice) may help when it comes to discussing ahimsa. (non-violence). So let’s start with karma, which simply means action. Good karma and bad karma are terms of relevance. What brings you closer to your desired goal, whatever that may be, is referred to as “good” karma and what takes you away from your desired goal could then be seen as “bad” karma.

During our talk at the Evolver event, you said that you didn’t like the way that Geshe Michael Roach commented that all the people who had come to hear his talk had good karma. You felt that with this statement he was being elitist, and you asked, “What about the security person, working downstairs, does that mean they don’t have good karma and that they have bad karma?” Karma is relative, as all actions are. The people at the Geshe M. talk had the “good” karma to be there, the security person had different karmas, which weren’t “good” for hearing a Buddhist lecture. The security person has karmas, which are “good” for something else. There is no judgment of right and wrong here…it is about what actions will best take you to where you want to go. Not everybody is interested in Buddhism for instance; this doesn’t mean they are bad people or that they are doing something wrong. The Practice of non-violence Central to the teachings of yoga is a belief that the nature of the universe and of the Self is ananda, which mean bliss or boundless joy. In other words it is a happy, harmonious space.

Dr. Martin Luther King jr speaks of this essential space: “Nonviolent resistance is based on the conviction that the universe is on the side of justice. Consequently, the believer in nonviolence has deep faith in the future. This faith is another reason why the nonviolent resister can accept suffering without retaliation. For he knows that in his struggle for justice he has cosmic partnership.” How do we see ourselves? How we treat others determines how others treat us, how others treat us determines how we see ourselves, how we see ourselves determines who we are.

During the American Civil Rights movement in 1960s, Malcolm X opposed the non-violent yogic methods to which Dr. King was committed. When Malcolm X spoke to black people he spoke to them as if they were victims of violence. He wanted to encourage them to fight with vengeance for the wrongs that had been done to them. He felt that for blacks to use violence against whites was justified. In order to do this he did his best to make blacks feel like victims and to identify themselves as victims. He made them feel angry, instigating violence against their oppressors. Dr. King, on the other hand did not speak to black people as if they were victims, he spoke to them as if they were saints. He spoke to their higherselves. He spoke to them as if they were holy beings, who had already overcome anger and fear and had become so large in love that they could forgive their oppressors. He spoke to those who had a vision of the promised land and he spoke as someone who shared that vision of the promised land as a true possibility.

Ahimsa pratisthayam tat samnidhau vaira tyagah—Patanjali YogaSutra 11.35 (translation: When you stop harming others, others will cease to harm you)

Our actions are powerful, they create the reality we live in. So the question of whether or not we should use violence to combat violence should be answered by asking ourselves: What do we really want, how do we want the future to unfold? Our actions now will determine how that happens. It has always been up to us.

“Violence only brings one thing: more and more of the same. We can bomb the world to pieces but we can’t bomb it into peace.”--Michael Franti

Om Shanthi, Thank you Daniel, With love, Sharon

great stuff, and not to detract from anything you said, but i recall something about Krishna cults, i helped a guy that was running away from a Krishna group once, he was very frightened, he told me some stories, i won't repeat and maybe things have not always been that are or are not so much now, but i also heard about Krishna cults toting machine guns and running contraband.Well so much for the story using the Gita, in that case.

If you listen to Martin Luther King, are we really hearing a voice that stands in the line of peace keepers, of those that took those words of religions, Bibles, and Gitas, and stood with some deeper current human vein of gold that is found in underground movements, that have always got the deeper teaching?

true Yoga, comes in all shapes and forms, postures, and style of practice.If someone can be so fortunate to belong to some group for awhile and study Patanjali or enter an asharam, or temple, then they can pick up some thread and begin to weave it in the great cosmic carpit of karmic unfolding.Or losing my religion, or becoming a wisp of what Gurjief refered to as a kind of thief of the absurd.

 

...you got to pick up every stitch

Early on Sharon says that when asked what it is she teaches she replies, "vegetarianism, environmentalism, and need for political action". It comes as no surprise to me therefore that she elicits a somewhat polarized reaction. I assume she came to those positions via her yoga practice and experience and therefore assumes a certain moral superiority in recommending them to us. I would prefer to teach individuals how to to reach their own center and come to their own enlightenment which I have always believed was the aim of yoga practice. And I trust that from that center they will come to their own position of right thinking and right action. For any of us to go there and then come back with "The Truth or The Message" (of vegetarianism or environmentalism or polical action or ...ism or that ...ism)just doesn't appeal to me as very yogic at all. I believe all the limbs and tenets of yoga are there to be discovered inside and even the greatest teacher can just point the way there. To the extent that we have touched our own center we will reflect the same knowledge, wisdom, and peace that the masters have and that is indeed available to all. Thank you all for sharing.

 "And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is bad,---Need anyone tell us these things?"