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The Traumatizing Mythology of 9/11/2001

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We live by stories. One could even argue that we are our stories.

Our stories connect past to future; they relate our individual transient experiences to larger themes of family, tribe, landscape, and cosmos. Those who survive the deepest horrors do so by means of a story that gives meaning to their lives under the horrific circumstances they must endure. Those who lose their stories can lose the will to live. Very little damages the human soul more than a confused, broken, or lost story of meaning.

In the United States, our national story of meaning for the beginning of the new millennium is broken, and this confused story has traumatized the nation more deeply than any of the events the story relates. We cannot understand what happened -- thus, we cannot plan for the future.

This is our story: on September 11, 2001, our country was attacked, and a pair of mythic icons in the New York City skyline fell; we don't know why, except that it was done by "terrorists" who "hate our country" for reasons that we can't clearly articulate. We went on a vengeance hunt for the bad guy responsible for the attack -- there's a story we all know and love. But then we stopped looking for the bad guy and instead invaded Iraq. We don't know why, but we were told it had something to do with keeping a madman with weapons of mass destruction (weapons that it turns out everyone knew didn't really exist) from vaporizing the United States (which we knew wouldn't happen), so that we could force his people at gunpoint to have their own democratic elections. The bad guy we were originally chasing got away, but no one cares about that any more and, of course, we don't know why. There were no further terrorist attacks of any substance against the United States; we don't know why. In the five years between 2001 and 2006, the US government legalized torture of prisoners, indefinite imprisonment without trial, warrant-less wiretaps, and a perpetual Condition Orange that means a tube of toothpaste in my backpack on an airplane is a deadly threat to the security of the country; all this was done in the name of protecting our "freedoms" as American citizens.... Need I go on?

The story we've settled upon doesn't make any sense. None at all.

I have encountered a different story that I would like to share. It isn't satisfying -- it is actually quite disturbing. But it is at least coherent.

This story begins in the late 1940's, when a geologist named M. King Hubbert started lecturing about "peak oil." He testified on the subject before Congress in the early 1970's. Hubbert's tale is about the economics of exploiting any non-renewable resource, be it oil, copper, or good quality flints for spears. In broad terms, production rises and prices drop: then production drops and prices rise. Somewhere in between, production reaches a "peak" where availability is as high and prices are as low as they will ever be. After the peak, prices rise until the resource becomes too expensive to use. This arc of production is as inevitable as the trajectory of a thrown stone. There is no question whether this peak will occur for any given non-renewable resource. The only question is when.

Hubbert's story predicted a production peak for petroleum some time in the twenty-first century, and as worldwide consumption rose through the last half of the twentieth century, the predicted peak moved earlier in time. By 1990, it was clear that the peak would occur within the first two decades of the new century. In the absence of new sources of energy at least as cheap and plentiful as oil, the consequences would be grim, according to this story. Our technological civilization would turn backward as cheap energy vanished -- depending on how the peak was managed, it might collapse completely. The United States, with its entire national infrastructure built around cheap oil, would be especially vulnerable.

In 1990, Saddam Hussein of Iraq invaded Kuwait. He was driven out of Kuwait during Iraq War I, and the war and subsequent economic sanctions damaged his country so badly that it was unable to exploit its own oil fields for over a decade. As a result, Iraq now sits atop what are expected to be the last producing oil fields of substantial size in the whole world. Every other untapped reserve is either small by comparison, or expensive to recover, or both.

In early 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney convened the National Energy Policy Development Group (NEPDG), composed of undisclosed participants; in May of 2001, this group produced its final report. Despite numerous lawsuits under the Freedom of Information Act, former Vice President Cheney refuses to release the contents of the report or the identities of the participants. This report certainly had something to say about peak oil, the dire consequences for the US, and the existence and estimated quantity of the oil lying under Iraqi soil.

I speculate that the report recommended that the US take control of the Iraqi oil fields by force.

If that speculation is correct, the problem would have been how to start the war. The world was relatively quiet in early 2001, the US economy -- except for the tech bubble collapse, which everyone seemed to view as an inexplicable anomaly -- seemed a final vindication of American Free Market Capitalism, and the wave of the future was "globalization." To do something as 18th-century as invading another country for its resources would require -- as the Neoconservatives had been saying for at least a decade -- that the United States experience a "new Pearl Harbor," a "Day of Infamy" that would enrage the American public, unite a fractious Congress, and grant the President nearly unlimited authority to make war.

In September, four months after the NEPDG report was completed, the World Trade Center towers fell, the President proclaimed war on "terror" with nearly unanimous Congressional support (how much broader a charter could one wish for?), and the US invaded Iraq with no exit strategy.

In 2008, we elected a new President who campaigned on a platform of getting us out of Iraq. You might remember that he went into office with the apparent intent to pull all the troops out of Iraq by June of 2009. After his first 100 days, that plan was scuttled, and now the entire issue has vanished from the news and the short-term memory of the American public. The troops are still there. The fortified bases are still there. The oil is still there.

So far this isn't a story, it is just a string of facts: Hubbert told a tale about oil, Iraq didn't develop the oil the geologists believe is there, Cheney convened a secret energy conference, the Twin Towers fell, the US invaded Iraq, Obama reneged on his promise to get us out of Iraq.

Let me turn these facts into a story.

In early 2001, President George W. Bush and Vice-President Richard Cheney, both oilmen hailing from families deeply involved in oil for decades, decided to act on the conviction that the Hubbert Peak was real, imminent, and spelled a terrible doom for the United States. Many others in the US government believed this, perhaps ever since the 1970's when Hubbert first told his story to Congress. Oil companies certainly believed it, and were planning their business strategy around it. Cheney initiated the NEPDG, which recommended that the US take control of the oil fields in Iraq as a national strategic imperative -- partly to buy breathing room for the US as global oil prices rose, but also to prevent the Iraqi oil, presumptively the last cheap oil in the world, from falling under the control of nations hostile to the US. The war-planning necessarily included the attack on the World Trade Center; some such public incident was needed to provide the political impetus for war. On September 11, the WTC attack occurred (as planned), the President was given a blank check to pursue "terrorists" anywhere he wished (as planned), and in March of 2003 the US invaded Iraq to establish control over Iraqi oil. Mission Accomplished.

I won't say this story is true. I don't know if it's true. What I do know is that it makes a whole lot more sense than the muddled "terrorist" story commonly accepted regarding the Twin Towers.

This story explains why Vice President Cheney classified the NEPDG report Top Secret, and still refuses to release it.

This story explains why the US almost immediately abandoned the hunt for Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.

This story explains why we invaded and occupied Iraq.

This story explains why 9/11 was not the first in a wave of attacks against the United States, but continues to stand as an isolated incident.

This story explains the haunted look on Bush's face in one of his last interviews in office, when he said, "Don't let it fail. Don't let Iraq fail."

This story explains what former Bush administration officials meant when they admitted without elaboration that the Iraq war was about oil.

This story explains why Obama reneged on Iraq once he took office, and why the next president (be it Palin, Putin, or Joe the Plumber), will keep us in Iraq as well, regardless of what he or she promises the public.

This story may even explain the attempt from 2001 through 2006 to turn the US into a surveillance state with a drastically weakened Bill of Rights. It was never about "terrorists" -- it was about an unruly American public facing an end to their way of life in the coming years. Cheney, in particular, never hesitated to express his belief that democracy was too weak to stand in the modern world -- by which I believe he meant a world without cheap oil. That also explains why the exiting Cheney warned the incoming Obama that the new president would thank him in the years to come for all of the power he and Bush had concentrated in the executive branch.

Most importantly, this story explains how planning, executing, and covering up the WTC attack could be viewed an act of American patriotism. This is of critical importance.

There has been discussion on this site and others regarding how the standard explanation of the WTC collapse doesn't add up. I've been interested in this subject since late September of 2001, to the extent that I built my own (inconclusive) conservation-of-momentum models for the then-popular "pancake theory" of collapse. Personally, I think controlled demolition of the towers is the simplest, most parsimonious physical explanation; that's what the collapse looks like in video clips, and it easily matches the kinetic energy, momentum, pulverization, seismic, and thermal profiles of the collapse and the aftermath. It explains the presence of unburned explosives in the ash that settled over NYC. No one has ever said that demolition was physically impossible.

But there's a major problem with the demolition argument. As a human story, it is not credible. You cannot go far down the demolition road without realizing that the US government had to be involved in at least a massive cover-up after the fact, and likely the planning and execution of the attack as well. This is an obvious and unavoidable sticking point. It is why President Bush ordered the director of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) 9/11 study to not waste time on "crackpot" theories of controlled demolition of the towers. It is why the 9/11 dissidents are viewed as "conspiracy nuts."

Both 9/11 and the Iraq War involved casts of thousands: top tactical and strategic levels of all branches of the military, the CIA, the NSA, the FBI, FEMA, members of Congress, the governor of New York, the mayor of New York City, the NYC police and fire departments, the engineers who performed on-site investigation of the WTC ruins, the salvage companies who carted the rubble away. Only a very few would have known everything, of course, but a lot of these people are very bright and they have a lot of information at their fingertips: many of them are, after all, the people who advise the President. If it's so obvious to us out here that there was a government involvement and cover-up, then these people would have known. Yet they played along and still haven't come out to the public. Why?

I can think of only two possible kinds of motivation that would sustain a conspiracy on this scale. One is religious fervor, which would not seem to apply here. The other is patriotism.

We can point to any number of large-scale conspiracies committed out of a sense of patriotism. The Manhattan Project comes immediately to mind. Operation Valkyrie in Hitler's Germany. The entire Cold War, on both sides. Such major conspiracies based on a sense of patriotism do exist, and the players usually take their secrets to their graves. Most of them sleep well at night, secure in the belief they are serving the greater good.

If you want to make a credible argument for US government involvement in 9/11, you need a patriotic reason: a simple and extremely powerful patriotic reason, easily communicated, easily understood. An argument something like, "If we don't do this, tens of millions of Americans will die and the United States government will collapse. There will be nothing left of our nation, our people, our way of life. The American ideals will be gone forever. Doing this is worth the loss of 10,000 American lives. They are making a heroic sacrifice for the survival of the nation. And you are doing your duty for your country."

That, or something very much like it, has to be the argument, and it must be believed.

This is, of course, exactly what the worst-case Peak Oil scenario promises us. Unlike global warming, there is no controversy about Peak Oil itself, only a question of when it will occur and how harshly the economic consequences will play out. Most projections I've seen range from grim to catastrophic, especially for the United States.

I'd like to make it clear that I don't agree with this argument at all. Destroying the Twin Towers while people were still in them was an atrocity. Using terror to manipulate the public and Congress for five years was an atrocity. Committing atrocities is not patriotic. I also don't agree with the worst-case Peak Oil scenarios. We may have inertial-confinement fusion within the next year or two, something I didn't expect to see in my lifetime. Scientists are learning how chlorophyll uses quantum interference to approach ninety-percent efficiency in conversion of solar energy. As oil prices rise, all kinds of strange technology will come out of the woodwork. I don't think Peak Oil will play out anything like what experts predict, other than the general prediction that we won't be burning oil in another century. That much seems certain: it does not require a diminished society, however.

But none of this is about what I believe. It is about what Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz believed in 2001. It is about what their advisers believed. It is about the real national story that guided the actions of the United States from 2001 through the present.

I don't know the real story. I do know that the muddled mess about terrorists and toothpaste is not the real story.

I invite any of you who have better stories to share them.

 

Notes:

[1] I considered plastering this with references, but instead I've decided to reference a single book, which is clear, concise, and not too alarmist in its tone. See Confronting Collapse, by Michael C. Ruppert, ISBN 978-1-60358-264-3.

 

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Image by Chor Ip, courtesy of Creative Commons license.

 

Comments

Bravo

A well written rumination on the probabilities surrounding that day and the ensuing decade. It's important for those who question the official story not to fall into alarmist rhetoric and /or descend into ever more wild eyed theorizing. There are WAY TOO MANY elements of that day and the years that followed that don't completely add up. That is obvious to any reasonably intelligent human being. The story you present makes basic sense, at least to me. Of course rage and bewilderment make sense when one reflects on the horror, particularly if your narrative has any truth to it. But emotionalism won't help sift through the facts and won't help us collectively come to terms with the reality of this situation. Thank you for writing this.

Thanks!

That is one fine article. I have a few friends who, even after listening to the endless evidence of controlled demolition, continue to ask, "but why would the government do that?". The simple motivation of acquiring oil is not enough for them. Now the more complex motivation of some kind of perverted patriotism, that maybe those responsible actually think they are serving their country, seems like something more people can relate to. Thanks for the insightful piece!

bravo.

thank you for connecting dots that i wasn't even aware of. it is a testament to the secrecy of the bush administration that i've never ever caught wind of the NEPDG, and i've been conducting my amateur research on 9/11 for years. you've outlined a powerful motive for a heinous crime. i have no illusions that the government will ever release information in their possession about who was "really" behind the attacks. any information implicating any american government official has undoubtedly been destroyed, along with all those pentagon security camera tapes. the bush regime learned its lessons through decades of experience with the DoD and CIA. (check out the book Family of Secrets) my only hope is that those of us sane enough to doubt the official story will continue to question, and convince others to question the events surrounding the great national tragedy of my generation. we are celestial beings. earth is our temporary home.

the storytelling animals

i think it is wonderful that you started your article about the importance of stories in the creation of psychological and cultural coherence. which is why, when we spin our tales, we must do so with the utmost care.thank you for acknowledging that your thoughts are speculative, and for not trying to pass off imaginative thought as fidelity to verifiable fact. both are highly valuable in the creation of both individual and shared narratives. and just to clarify i don't mean to imply that imagination and fact are radically distinct & unrelated: they most certainly overlap and depend upon each other, in complex ways that i'm not about to get into in this comment. i'm just basically repeating what cdcaleo said about not becoming alarmist or assuming that we've got it all figured out. stories are living, organic processes that are subject to change & revision... this is what separates story from doctrine or dogma, both of which are stultifying & oppressive.... thanks again, themon!

There seems to be a common

There seems to be a common misperception about the motives behind these kinds of atrocities. Shit, the same could even be said about Hitler and Stalin with regard to "the greater good". I just don't follow that reasoning. The global elite is increasingly notorious for looking out for their OWN security...their OWN power. What does this have to do with the "greater" good? Saying such nonsense implies that there was something altruistic behind the slaying of many thousands of innocent lives. The elite is bent on one thing and one thing only: complete world domination and the total subjugation of the world's "underclass". Read the PNAC document which was released a year before 9/11 called "Rebuilding America's Defenses". It discusses the desire for a "catalyzing event" that will usher in a new world order and that there are bound to be countless opponents within the class of the "have nots" that must be "dealt with". This is clearly an agenda to benefit and empower those who already have near-total power at the expense of everyone else. The "greater good"? Even the sociopaths at the top of the Masonic pyramid aren't that stupid. They have taken a vow to serve evil, and in my opinion along with those of many others, 9/11 was a satanic ritual human sacrifice designed to please their demonic "gods" and was an event used to further their drive toward "full spectrum dominance". Listen to various lectures given by Dr. David Ray Griffin" available online. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3538037502590699697#

ccccompassion

You could absolutely say Hitler and Stalin thought they were doing the best for what they could envision. That doesn't make it right though, that doesn't make them any less deluded or evil, so what is your issue? This doesn't add a sense of altruism, this gives meaning to selfishness and evil, which is a matter of not being aware of oneself, a matter of wrongview. What is the alternative? To go on some holy crusade calling for the heads the the Elite? Should this conscious revolution be no different than the french revolution? no one is supporting these guys,but just imagine how messed up all these guys are, it shows they're need to be healed.

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"Will the transformation."-Rilke

 

What is it going to take to finally Wake up the American People?

The presidential election of 2000 was stolen. So when the 9/11 attacks happened, i knew something was up. By mid-2002, i knew that 9/11 was a false flag operation similar to Pearl Harbor. Then in 2004, my friend who is a top executive at CBS news told me to my face that the Neocons, with the help of a subgroub within the Pentagon, planned and executed the attacks on 9/11. He said the conspiracy extended throughout many segments of society. He said these people were extremely powerful and would not allow anything to stop them. The obvious reasons for the Invasion of Iraq: 1. control the oil. 2. eliminate Saddam who was a strong supporter of the Palestinian People. 3. establish a puppet govt favorable to the US interests. 4. build military bases in Iraq and establish a geo-political stronghold in the region. 5. be in a better position to threaten or invade Iran who is a strong supporter of the Palestinian People. All of this and more was obvious to me in 2002.

I concur

Agreed...All of this was so obvious to me shortly after the towers fell...

As a native New Yorker who could see the burning towers from the East Village as I walked to work, I recall stopping on the street and looking with a small group of people that had formed. I  only looked for about 30 seconds, then got on a train to work. I acutely remember wishing that by the time I got to work things would be fine. (At this point the towers had not yet fallen). Some part of me knew this was the beginning of something very ugly, and that it would provide carte blance to the shady Bush government should they need it...

When I got to work and heard the news that the towers actually fell, I rushed into an edit room where I was supposed to be working with a few people that day, and one of the first things I heard was an Editor say "We should raze it all...Afghanistan, Iran...". And at that moment all my concerns were solidified...the government had non-critical-thinking people behind whatever the hell they wanted to do...

It's clear that a cabal in our government obsessed with their own interests (whether that be oil, hegemony, domination and control of the Middle East, collusion with other rogue governments, water - or some combo of all of the above) either purposefully engineered this all or watched as others did, so that they could use it to their advantage. 

Plain, simple, and painfully obvious since 2001.

So the question is, what do we do? I mean, really...

Not that I've heard

Nor can I imagine how it could be. Peak production is first an empirical observation, and second, a pretty basic feature of economics.

Peak oil doesn't mean we've run out of oil. A relative sent me some internet wisdom that claimed trillions of barrels of oil under the Rocky Mountains. Their math was messed up, but the basic idea was sound -- there's more than enough oil to keep our Hummers humming for a thousand years.

At $100/gallon.

At that price, I'd sell my car and walk everywhere. So would everyone else. The oil is there, but no one can afford to use it as fuel. As a result, there is no demand for oil, so no one bothers to try to keep the pumps going. It's a dead commodity.

Peak oil is inevitable. The only questions are exactly when it happens, and how harsh the consequences will be.

But more to the point, it doesn't matter. Even if Peak Oil turned out to be a nightmare fairy tale with no foundation in reality, what matters is whether it was a fairy tale that Bush and Cheney believed in 2001. If they did, and they chose to act on it, then it doesn't matter whether it is true or not. It's the story that drove the nation.

Human Species Exit Exams

Can a race who condones the wholesale slaughter of it's own, be a candidate for reaching escape velocity from Planet Earth?We are gaining speed in determining who are enemies really are and what they are capable of. Also we are being forced to confront the enemy within who is hesitant to look into this abyss of self/society and do the work necessary to emerge a transcendent activist.I believe RS is one of many founts of this fusional outpouring of spiritual knowledge and technical savy.I believe we can use this awareness to "Die before we Die" which is a classic method by which one can begin to consciously evolve.Even the most popular mythologies (matrix, avatar) of our time beckon us to rearrange our senses so that we may become awakened warriors in this epoch.I think we are in the formulative stages of realizing what has actually happened and what most be done. I am excited at the possibility of shedding so many of our illusions in service of attaining our cosmic destiny. I thank you all for being here and being willing to look for yourselves at what is, and from there we can decide what will be.-Nano (The Nano Thermitic Pink Elephant)  And here is the clarion call of NOWhttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8182697765360042032#We can have fun with this too people :)As evidienced herehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR2WIt9br70wearechangeatlanta.com

cargocollective.com/pinkelephantcollective

 

"An Elephant Never Forgets...."

Creative Means to Slay the Demon

Not Themon :) We Are Change Atlanta's entry into the infowars.com "Naked Body Scanner Video Contest" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR2WIt9br70 For more information please visit http://www.infowars.com/first-entries-in-alex-jones-naked-body-scanner-p...

cargocollective.com/pinkelephantcollective

 

"An Elephant Never Forgets...."

I think this a good view of

I think this a good view of one facet regarding 9/11 - oil. Some point to Saddam's conversion to Euros as a major component of this facet. Many others we may never know, but I think other agendas at play in this geopolitical wrangling can be sufficiently described and learned from. I think the most alarming is the technocratic security state that has made us all suspects. Our Common Law presumption of innocence is becoming a faded memory. The war on civil liberties goes beyond the oil issue and points to another agenda that will likely persist after the oil issue is, hopefully, resolved. We are being taken back to pre-Magna Carta and there is little reason to think it is temporary. Carrol Quiqley described a desire by the private cartel that controls the issue of money to usher in a world government modeled on feudalism. Tribute would be subtly extracted as it is now through various avenues of a corrupted money. I fear this scenario most, as it will hogtie humanity and deprive it of actualization, (unless this is the path to actualization....who's to say?)But 9/11 is like an historical Avatar event. If understood and acted upon properly by the populace, it provides a shortcut to a world we hope for. The evidence is too powerful not to be effective. It is only the unhealthy emotions of fear and hatred that hold us back from the metamorphosis that may result from facing this ugly truth and acting accordingly. One hopes the other emotions will guide us to that end.So I wax poetic, but we are at a nexus where a globalist agenda is born. Will we be a bad species, unhealed from a birthing trauma and plagued by a parasitic elite? Or will we overcome and be a humane specie that plays well with others? Is it too much to think that 9/11 truth may be the deciding factor? Perhaps not, because unlike any thing else I can think of, it drives home the reality of how bad things are. Only 9/11 truth exposes the extent of collusion among government and media and industry and academia and other social institutions in a mass dysfunctional misrepresentation of life, the recognition of which is so necessary to free ourselves from this descent into spiritual slaverly. I don't think its about patriotism, though that may have been a ploy to enlist the more naive. This is wholesale abandonment of principle.  A common move amongst those who regularly expand the state for personal gain, only this time they have the whole shebang within reach. I don't think they would have done this if they thought there would be a decent America left to answer to. Hopefully they miscalculated that one.

RE: I think this is a good view

Yes I think oil is part of a massive plot to return outright a feudal system of technoenslavement.Kudos!-Nano (The Nano Thermitic Pink Elephant)

cargocollective.com/pinkelephantcollective

 

"An Elephant Never Forgets...."

Really?

So glad to read here in RS an article that addresses the official bunkum about 9/11 and poses a credible alternate 'qui bono' scenario for that horrid event. I've been aware for some time of much of the damning and explosive evidence now available, if one would only look, that utterly debunks the official 9/11 story. And have been amazed that so many seem to prefer remaining ignorant of these facts or even indifferent. It shows how deep denial runs in our collective psyche at the moment. A denial that perhaps intensifies in response to an expansion of consciousness. And make no mistake. An expansion of consciousness is precisely what the real facts about 9/11 entail. I'm also somewhat surprised that the author cannot imagine other motives:"I can think of only two possible kinds of motivation that would sustain a conspiracy on this scale. One is religious fervor, which would not seem to apply here. The other is patriotism."You do not see increasing or consolidating power as a sufficient motive? Perhaps that also points to an area where we can expand our awareness. To not limit our understanding of what makes other individuals tick by referring only to our knowledge of ourselves.

Motives

The problem with other motivations, such as desire for power and wealth, is that they don't scale well.

I understand that Dick Cheney was forced to set aside his control of his Haliburton stock during his eight years as VP, and when he once again became a private citizen, he was a billionaire. I haven't verified that, but it isn't implausible. You could therefore make the plausible argument that the whole Iraq war was committed to make Richard Cheney personally wealthy, and go on a search for exactly how much money he made, and how. Wealth would be a very powerful motive for him.

But what did Colin Powell get out of it? How did it all play out for Scooter Libby? How big a cut of the pie did the director of the NIST 9/11 study get? Why did they all play along?

Wealth as a motive fades out quickly as you move away from the center, and it leaves a lot of disaffected people in its wake who feel they were passed over. It's a powerful motivator, but it only tends to make sense for very small conspiracies that can hold secrets very close: insider trading schemes, Bernie Maddoff scams, etc. Then when the lid pops off, people go ballistic (e.g. Bernie Maddoff) and the outrage results in legal action.

The same can be said for concentrating power, and as an openly zero-sum game, it makes bitter enemies within the system. 

The unique thing about both religious fervor (I'm thinking of the kind of fervor that set off the Children's Crusade or the first Papal Inquisition, not the individual religious piety of most of today's religion) and patriotism is that both create an environment of shared loyalty that rewards even its lowest members with a powerful sense of contributing to the whole and serving a greater good. I can't think of any other motivators that work that way.

I'm certainly open to suggestions, however....

I see your point...

But.  Those who get on board out of religious fervor or patriotism usually have another bee in their bonnet that makes them easy to manipulate, misdirect and utilize by those running the show.  For instance, in the neo-conservative end of the spectrum of both religion and patriotism where the fervor at present burns hottest, one bee in their bonnet is the unstoppable demographic changes that threaten to relegate them to a shrinking minority.   With precise calculation, they've been seduced into believing that those opposing the agendae of the plutocrats are the very  'enemies' responsible for the shrinking of their cherished world and the diminution of their own standing, influence and prerogatives.   Insofar as they're energized towards salvaging their perceived status, I think that power, when understood more broadly, scales rather well.  

Besides.  Just because someone invokes patriotism or religion as their motive, does that necessarily really account for anything?  One has to look deeper.  Is patriotism worthy of the name when it proudly defends a policy of torture or invasion?  Is religion worthy of respect when it eagerly awaits the suffering of all those who don't believe?  

 

 

Thank you

I agree completely.  The author brings up one scenario of countless possibilities for the power hungry madmen responsible to have done such a thing.

 Alex Jone's has done incredible work to expose those responsible and their links to historical examples on par with this level of madness (WW1, WW2, Vietname, etc ad infinitum)

 Incredibly well stated.


Thank you!

 

-Nano 

cargocollective.com/pinkelephantcollective

 

"An Elephant Never Forgets...."

Superb contribution

Well-written and intelligent article with an important thesis; one of the best I've seen on Reality Sandwich. Kudos.

A few additional comments

I believe the Truther movement has a rather short-sighted objective of vengeance. You see its stated desire to have a big inquest, followed by a trial, followed by punishment of the guilty. This flows naturally from the whole Western concept of justice-as-vengeance, so they would say they seek “justice” rather than “vengeance.” In our culture, they are the same thing.

There is something called “restorative justice,” and the objective is quite different. Restorative justice focuses not on law and lawbreakers, but on the harm done to the community. The objective is to heal the harm. Sometimes this results in punishment of the guilty; more often it does not, but that isn't important so long as the community finds healing. This is actually the focus of law, as well, but law has congealed into a set of rigid formulas and practices that as often as not do additional harm to the community.

One of the textbook examples of restorative justice was in a town in Pennsylvania, I believe, where an old, run-down wooden footbridge was burned as a teen-age prank. This footbridge was, in a sense, the Twin Towers of the small town, and its loss to a senseless act of arson caused horrible damage to the community. Without law, the two boys responsible would probably have been lynched, or disfigured for life by some cruel and unusual punishment. Under the rules of legal vengeance, they should have been sent to jail and their families fined into bankruptcy for their criminal mischief. Instead, the community decided to use restorative practices. The outcome was that the two boys came to fully understand the magnitude of what they had done. Rather than going to jail, they were simply let go. They raised the money to rebuild the bridge, were principals in its reconstruction, and as they became adults, founded a preservation society to make sure the bridge would never again fall into the state of disrepair that had tempted them, as young boys, to view it as trash that needed to be burned. Few cases are this dramatic, but it illustrates clearly the difference in objective, approach, and outcome.

Vengeance against the perpetrators of 9/11 would bring bitter closure to an open wound, which would be better than nothing. I want more.

The first step toward national healing is to restore sanity to the narrative. As a sane narrative, it does not need to explain everything, but it needs to elucidate plausible motives for the principal actors. In dealing with human motives, one rule applies pretty universally: no one is ever the villain in their own script. If you can't see how a person is the misunderstood hero in their own script, then you don't understand their motives.

For eight years, I viewed Cheney and Bush as a bald Doctor Strangelove and his evil, smirking sidekick. This is actually the same narrative as the Terrorists-and-Toothpaste, or the Evil Islamic Empire, or the Jewish Plot, or the Invasion of the Body Snatchers. At the top is some impenetrable Evil that somehow infects everyone it touches, perhaps through fear, or religion, or brainwashing, or some kind of ineffable moral corruption. Whatever Cheney and Bush were up to, it was a psychopathy beyond my understanding, within a hidden network of evil psychopaths.

All such narratives cast us as helpless victims of evil, to be used, enslaved, or exterminated. They are not sane narratives if taken seriously, and cannot possibly lead to healing.

I've offered one narrative that I think is at least sane. I repeat that I don't know if it's true, but whatever the truth turns out to be, it will involve a sane narrative; 9/11 did happen, and it was planned and executed by real people with real motives.

The second step in healing is deciding what harm has been done. Obviously, we have the dead: here and in Iraq. But 9/11 and Iraq go very much deeper than this. Together they have broken our national will and identity.

I have asked myself many times, with no good answer: If Bush and Cheney actually saved the United States by giving us another ten, or twenty, or thirty years of cheap oil, what did they save? We are the nation that reacted to an alleged assault on our free society by destroying our freedoms. We are the nation that perpetrated Abu Ghraib and sent home snapshots for the family album. We are the nation that invaded Iraq on a transparent pretext, and even a president-elect didn't know the real reason until a hundred days into his term. It's quite possible that the United States government has always been this contemptible and corrupt, but in the past it always left American citizens with something to be proud of. Both 9/11 and Iraq crossed a line. They harmed our national identity and stole our future.

The third step is deciding what is needed to heal the damage that was caused. This is where things get interesting.

It's very likely that part of the healing will involve turning Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, and the rest of that lot over to the Hague for trial. I'm skeptical that enough legal evidence could be amassed to make charges stick to any individual. But such punitive justice is merely preliminary, a side-note.

The central issue is the oil itself. Peak oil is here. The US has control of the oil in Iraq. We have taken responsibility for it. This means that we have a responsibility to manage it well, not just for ourselves, but for the world. The biggest part of our healing as a nation will involve turning this national disgrace and international crime into something worthwhile for the world. We need to make some changes in national awareness and policy soon, if there is to be any hope of this.

My grown boys always ask me, “Where are the flying cars?” It's a good question, if sad. Where are the flying cars? The moon bases, the warp drives, and the “Earl Gray, hot,” produced by a replicator? The United States has always represented hope for the future, not just here, but throughout the world. Both 9/11 and the Iraq War represent a kind of thuggery that has answered hope with brutality.

Vengeance isn't enough for me. I want to be able to tell my boys, “The flying cars are coming. Just wait and see.”

Neways

You have a cool blog, just keep adding more interesting posts, I have you bookmarked. Will be back again. neways

What of the future?

      The US govt. is preparing for a grass-roots 9/11 backlash. Once a tipping point is reached of citizens who find the official story a cover up, and who begin—as a consequence—to believe that its own government was culpable in the deaths of so many of its fellow citizens, a flood gate will open; there will be a revolution, and true Americans—fiercely independent, and armed to the teeth—will fight back.

      It will be a horribly bloody battle and will forever change the psyche of human kind. While the type of rumination carried on here is in preparation for such a tipping point, I think that more attention should be focused on the future effects of the awakening of the American public.

      What kind of human will emerge from such an Armageddon as this?

One possible outcome

I've worried about this. It could happen that way. I think it unlikely.

First, the American people aren't going to rebel against the government over an atrocity committed by the Bush administration nearly a decade ago. They might revolt -- as the farmers almost did in FDR's day -- over personal hardship as Peak Oil plays out. They might revolt because the government is sitting on the oil in Iraq and isn't using it to keep gas prices low (which is exactly what the government needs to do: allow gas prices to slowly rise, so that alternate technologies can begin to compete -- personally, I think the government will cave in and keep gas prices low until we hit a crisis and see gas prices double, triple, or increase tenfold overnight, which will destroy everything.)

Second, Republicans always blame the Democrats (I've watched this in my family). They (my family) were still complaining about Clinton in the 2007 housing collapse. They think the rise in oil prices is caused by environmentalists. If the government did exactly what I've outlined here, and if it were fully exposed by Fox News (imagine such a thing!), it would be Obama's fault. They'd "revolt" by voting for Palin come 2012.

Third, that is one end that punitive justice serves, to slake blood-lust. If matters came to potential revolution (very unlikely, in my mind), Bush and Cheney would go to the Hague. That would take most of the wind out of the revolt.

Vengeance??

I'm not sure which "Truther" organization you have researched or interacted with in determining their "Vengeful" intentions. Therefore I will just chalk it up as your projection of what the millions who question the official story on 9/11 intend for restorative justice. Because it has nothing to do with my personal experience in the various groups who are seeking justice for these crimes. We have the rule of law with the intention that no one should be above it. There is ample evidence for war crimes present. It would not be difficult if America suddenly decided to honor the agreements of it's founding documents for dispensing justice in the event of treason. One recent example is the Misprision of Treason conference which took place in Valley Forge Pennsylvania 9/11: Blueprint for Truth The Architecture of Destruction Richard Gage, AIA Sat, Mar 6, 2010 • 9am - 6pm Valley Forge Convention Center City/State: Philadelphia, PA Date: Sat, Mar 6, 2010 You can see for yourself the hit piece thrown together by ABC nightline news here at the conference. http://www.realitysandwich.com/whos_afraid_911_truth If justice is to be down first people must wake up to the reality of the crime that has and continues to be committed. If not for moral reasons alone the staggering economic reasons are equally blatant and can be summarized by visiting costofwar.com Evolvers Stand Up! Further intellectualizing as to how this will play out is not paramount. We can no further predict the quantum interactions of a few molecules let alone how a true enlightened populace may determine to settle it's own affairs. No offense but I think when you become a mass murderer you must be contained and removed from the population. This does not imply capital punishment but your playground privileges are definitely revoked. I would say get behind the science (Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth) understand history (Nuremburg, Operation Paperclip etc) and visualize, intend and act upon the desired result. Am I asking too much? Is it possible the boogie, hippie, entheogenic tribe may integrate the aspects of warriorship required to see this type of awareness take hold. We need Hippie Samurais. We need Martin Luther's and Luther Kings who march with the poor, nail theses to church walls, march non-violently, refuse to give up their seats etc ad infinitum BE THE CHANGE -Nano wearechange.org

cargocollective.com/pinkelephantcollective

 

"An Elephant Never Forgets...."

Please clarify

Perhaps my turn of phrase was inflammatory. If so, I apologize.

Let me ask this: what happens after justice? Presume that facts are marshalled, the guilty are identified, tried, convicted and sentenced (or acquitted).

Is that enough? If not, what happens next?

Question ?

Is there a reason that the exchange between Shaw and another poster has been removed ?

Was the removal over the fact that Shaw believes Israel is directly involved/responsible.

I didn't look at his link, but the removal is glaring. 

Glaring but not surprising

Sigh.

Charles Shaw

Author - Exile Nation

 

Answer ?

Hi cdcaleo... Since I was participating that exchange, I noticed that the entire thread was gone as well. Its removal was indeed puzzling, and I looked into it.  Nothing had been flagged as inappropriate, and there had been no spam, but it's also the case that, on this system, if the initial commenter who started the thread deletes their post then it automatically takes out all the replies too.  This is a possible explanation.

So, no, it had nothing to do with anybody's beliefs.

Come to think of it, Charles, didn't you start the thread?

Tony V

www.tonyvigorito.com

Curious

I'm relatively new to this site, so I'm not familiar with its editorial policies.

I assumed the thread was clobbered by the editorial staff for public brawling. You both started with some interesting points, but then it got personal and sarcastic, and I stopped reading. I was just about to ask (politely) that you take it outside and voluntarily remove your posts and repost your essential ideas more briefly. Before I had a chance to post, however, the whole thread was gone.

Charles, did you pull your original post? I'm curious.

To summarize (very briefly): Charles had posted a link to a fellow named Bollyn, whom Charles finds credible and interesting; Bollyn's claims implicate Israel in the 9/11 and Iraq scenario. Tony V stated that Bollyn appeared to be working from an anti-Semitic agenda, and finds him neither credible nor interesting. The volume went up from there. Is that a fair one-paragraph summary, gents?

I had a few thoughts of my own, which I will post separately. 

impermanence

Hi Themon.

I feel bad that particular comments thread devolved into what increasingly had the whiff of a prick waving contest.  Apologies for my part in that.  I liked your article, your writing style, and your studied avoidance of certainty. I found the dialogue very stimulating and thought-provoking initially, then, not so much. However the thread vanished, that event in itself was a satisfying meditation on impermanence, and how this human world is ultimately nothing more than the echo of a passing shadow.

And Charles, it's clear that we stimulate one another.  I hope you know I love you like a brother.

Tony V

www.tonyvigorito.com

Well...

I didn't delete it that I know of. But this isn't the first time its happened. 

To reiterate what I said, I found that Christopher Bollyn's theory and those of a couple others who built upon his work seemed to me to be the most detailed and insightful analysis of 9/11 yet provided by anyone. It uncovered scores of heretofore hidden connections between the Israeli Mossad and Mossad front companies, private Israeli business interests, American Neocons, and the 9/11 attacks. It highlighted how the Mossad's fingerprints are all over 9/11, but only Bollyn so far has had the balls/brains/bullheadedness to investigate Israel, a completely taboo subject to most people. It has resulted in his life being turned upside down, and in response he has fled the country. He is not the only person to do so under the same conditions. 

Regardless of Bollyn's specific claims, in any fair investigation, Israel would have been called forth to explain
how they got their fingerprints all over the 9/11 attacks. But not here in America. It is forbidden to criticize Israel,
much less imply that maybe they aren't really the allies we are told
they are. What other nation could get away with having 34
high ranking members of the President's administration with either dual
Israeli-American citizenship or strong ties to Israel like the Bush
Administration did? It really makes ya think (or not) who's controlling
who. When we ask "cui bono" we see Israel was the #1 beneficiary of our
post-9/11 foreign policy. >:0/

I believed Bollyn was on to something because he has graduate degrees studying the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and has spent his entire journalist career investigating and writing about this conflict. Since he has been largely critical of Israel, he has been what I feel is unfairly maligned as an Anti-Semite for his work, a common tactic used against Israel's critics.

Tony--without reading Bollyn's work and with only a percursory glance at his website--decided Bollyn is a "White Supremacist" and dismissed him outright without even looking at the evidence he gathered. But there is absolutely nothing to suggest Bollyn is a real Anti-Semite, much less a "White Supremacist." 

Even if Bollyn never existed, the Israeli connection to 9/11 would still exist, there are multiple sources available on it, and plenty of high ranking officials who believe 9/11 was a Mossad operation, or at the very least, a rogue CIA/Mossad/Neocon junta, which began with the Neocons and the Likkud seizing power in 2000, and culminated with the aborted attack on Iran in 2008. In between was the Iraq War, the neutralization of Syria, the Lebanon War, the Gaza "war", the Israeli "security wall" and the continued slow annexation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. 

I challenged anyone to offer up one positive benefit of our so called alliance with Israel. To date I have received no response.

In my opinion, the high-volume knee-jerk emotional responses of Israel's defenders only serves to scare off legitimate inquiry into Israel's role in the 9/11 attacks and the consequences of our alliance with Israel. These should be looked at objectively like any other foreign policy issue. Instead, it has been subsumed by the shrill shreiks of "Anti-Semitism!", taking what is a poiitical issue and disingenuously making it a racial one. This is the worst kind of demagogeury that has been used to silence Israel's critics since the formation of the State of Israel. But not any longer. The Emperor truly has no clothes on this one, and the people are beginning to shriek, "Naked!!"

Charles Shaw

Author - Exile Nation

 

conspiracy

Charles, have you ever considered the bullying tactics you use to silence anyone who disagrees with you?  Because I have dared participate in this discussion, you have called me lazy, mentally ill, squawky, shrill, and someone who just likes to hear themselves talk.  You don't address the questions I raise, but instead you seek to characterize me in a straw man fashion that is based either on your own presumptions or on projections of your shadow self. In the vanished thread, you continually tried to forbid me from responding to you.  When I disobeyed you, curiously, the entire thread disappeared.

Would you like me to post the email exchange between myself and the moderator of RS forums, wherein I was assured that nothing had been removed by them and it was explained that when the original commenter deletes his comment then the entire thread is removed as well? 

In any event, by way of yawning reiteration, let me emphasize again: Criticims of Israel is not anti-Semitic, so stop pretending that's what this is about. On the other hand, Bollyn characterizes Zionist overlords with false quotations, decontextualized news stories, indignant menorahs, ahistorical references, and hideous photos. Why should we pollute our minds with anything from a man who blames Jews for everything from the bankruptcy of GM to the Obama administration?

Whatever sense Bollyn may make, a cursory glance through his website reveals that he is operating from a place of bigotry. I'm flabbergasted that you do not see this, Charles. The credibility of a witness is perfectly relevant in evaluating their point of view. 

I know that you are very passionate, Charles, and that's something I admire about you, but let me offer you some unsolicited advice: Beware of accepting accounts based on retrospective interpretation; it is equivalent to backtracking with a bulldozer.  It is easy for someone to create a compelling story when they start with their own biases, underline and/or invent facts to support those biases, and ignore facts that contradict those biases. A proper investigation, on the other hand, allows the story to emerge from the facts.  This is not what Bollyn has done.

Themon's article was excellent exactly because he avoided that kind of audacity in pretending to know for certain what happened. And Themon, I apologize once again for this exhausting diversion.

Tony V

www.tonyvigorito.com

Curious

I guess I don't understand why Israel would not be involved, if the US government was involved.

It seems unlikely to me that the President would use US soldiers to set things up. He'd call a guy who knows a guy. Who's going to be on that short list? Mossad will be near the top. US-allied, discreet, efficient. They probably owe the US a few favors (and vice versa). I don't think you'd need any true "rogues" involved. There were, for instance, the leaked minutes of the Downing Street meeting in London regarding the Iraq War, and the top British leaders simply accepted that "The US is going forward with the Iraq invasion, and they want us to help craft the legal basis for the invasion." I can see a very similar meeting held in Mossad HQ regarding 9/11, accepted with a similar fatalism. If they were ever discovered, they would officially be "rogues," of course.

I guess Mossad involvement would be surprising if you start from the official story, that this was done by -- what was it again? Al Queda? Iraq? Some South African diplomat with a really cute assistant and a big fishtank in his office?

If you start from the White House and work down, an Israeli involvement seems obvious. It's like asking how Mercutio got involved in Romeo's street fight.

Bravo

That is of course the other side of the Israel theory, which (of course) must be considered objectively along with the others, and for which there is considerable evidence. Nice, Themon. >:0)

Charles Shaw

Author - Exile Nation

 

If real life were more like the Internet

Glad to have you back, Charles.  I read a comic yesterday, Tom the Dancing Bug, that satirized the unfortunate tendencies of this communication medium.  I think you'll appreciate it:

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/comics/this_modern_world/2010/04/12/t...

Tony V

www.tonyvigorito.com

chaos

As I said in the vanished thread, there's a conversation to be had about 9-11, perhaps Israel is relevant, but including a bigot like Bollyn in the conversation distracts, degrades, and discredits the entire discourse. Unless disinformation is the goal, why hyperlink to an ugly agenda? Ignoring him and the desperations of ad hominem argumentation, this is a great dialogue.

Themon, despite your own South African sarcasm for which you were quick to castigate Charles and myself, I find your notions interesting. (And what was that, anyway, an allusion to Lethal Weapon 2?)

Nonetheless, I remain skeptical of retrospective interpretation and cui bono logic--but don't panic!  That's probably just the archetype I've been called to inhabit in this conversation.  If we all agreed, after all, there would be nothing to talk about and noboby would learn anything.  In any event, using cui bono logic, we could argue that since the U.S. emerged as an industrial and military superpower after World War II, then the U.S. must have been behind the development of the Axis Powers.  I don't think that's likely, and besides, it's highly questionable that becoming quagmired in two wars with a cratering economy can be seen as a beneficial outcome for the U.S., any more than flagging U.S. support for Israel and unbearable tensions in the Middle East can be seen as a beneficial outcome for Israel.

Is al Quaeda involvement really absurd when it's understood in the context of CIA training and blowback?  Cui bono?  The U.S. has made itself an easy target for any state that wishes to surreptitiously weaken it. Recollect that when the Soviets were in Afghanistan, the U.S. surreptitiously funded and trained al Quaeda precisely in order to weaken the U.S.S.R.  And it worked. The Soviet Union collapsed shortly after they withdrew.  In military science, the only way to attack a military superpower and avoid mutually assured destruction is surreptitiously and statelessly.

At the end of the day, I think conspiratorial speculation can be interesting as long as it doesn't distract us from compelling the present, but I don't think it begins to capture the true terror of the human situation: That history is absolutely emergent, and nobody is in control of this juggernaut that's barrelling down the shuddering tracks of history. There are doubtless and countless conspiracies, but they are fools to think they're in control of anything, for history is not without a sense of irony.

Or, as Robert Anton Wilson once wrote: "The imposition of order equals the escalation of chaos."

Tony V

www.tonyvigorito.com

"In any event, using cui

"In any event, using cui bono logic, we could argue that since the U.S. emerged as an industrial and military superpower after World War II, then the U.S. must have been behind the development of the Axis Powers."

 Well if you follow the money, Hitler got a lot of funding from major investment houses in New York and London. 

 Among the principals involved, Prescott Bush, grandfather of W. Among Prescott's many accomplishments, he was instrumental in attempting to initiate a fascist coup in America in the 1930s.

 History: it's never as simple as you expect it to be. Until you come to terms with the fact that most of what you know (most of the mythologized narrative you've learned to associate with history) is 'victor's history' and as a result, numerous important details have been left out (like, Who paid for the wars?), and so much of what you know is not, in fact, so.

 

The rEvoLution is Within

Love....

is I think, as always, the only real answer. The striving for a 'story' that makes sense is on some level a drive to rationalism, towards things 'making sense'. In these post-singularity times, the rational is broken. My 'caring end of life counseling' is someone elses 'death panel'. So even if there is a rational story told about 9/11, my 'government terrorism' will be someone elses 'patriotism'. The lesson is that the rational story, like almost everything else pre-singularity is dualistic and outdated. It is a vehicle of division, there's a 'side' to be had out of it, someone has to be right and someone wrong, no one wants to lose, so there's conflict. Conflict is war. What is the answer then? As the author (I think) suggested above, calling it restorative justice, the story of the two boys who burned the bridge and were helped by all to heal themselves and all by repairing their damage. There is where the answer is. That kind of justice is a form of love. It is the only 'weapon' we all have immediate access to, that we can use in any situation, that heals and 'restores' not only the criminal but their victims too. The difficulty is in us. In seeing that love is the appropriate response to hate or violence, or 'evil' or wanton destruction, or pettiness, or greed, or stupidity. One easing into it can be through imagining that the person doing the wrong is your son, or your daughter... if they had done the wrong you see, you would have arrived at a response by loving them. That doesn't mean letting them off the hook, if you love someone you want to help them back onto the path, help them right their wrongs, understand them, help them restore their humanity if they have been inhuman. The teens and the bridge is a good example. The recent video of very young soldiers shooting up journalists (by mistake?) outside the rules of engagement and talking so casually about the lives, like a video game. Horrifying! But does the response of punishment, you're guilty, make it better? It's like the mom in the supermarket spanking the spoilt child in the cereal aisle mainly because she's embarrassed at the attention drawn to her bad parenting skills. Shouldn't we instead educate, help, have compassion, find the root of the bad behaviour, or in other words, love the child. And so, they, all the 'wrongdoers' are all someones children, shouldn't we all be their loving parents? We are all connected as most here have realized. If I do not love someone else, it is myself I am not loving. It's not easy, but as Mohandas said "A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave."

Idealism

I appreciate the idealism in how to handle those responsible. I must say though, You're not going to stop future warlords from creating wonton violence if we coddle them and see them only as somehow fallen off the good path of the lord. There is nothing incorrect about justice. Their Karma is to be merited out by some agent. I see no reason why it could not be a living agent in the present tense and that they be punished as an example, of why these actions are deemed heinous and reprehensible by all man. Frank Miller's Dark Night comes to mind. Is it possible that some people are just mad and cannot be dealt with rationally? Is it possible that we needn't become that we despise in order to deal with it in a rational manner? Ie through the court system. I would find it very apt for all of those responsible to spend time at Guantanamo, occasionally being subjected to the waterboarding they themselves approved knowing full and well that they were authorizing torture. Isn't that a teacher we have all had to deal with at sometime? Actually feeling the paint we have inflicted and thus true compassion can be born. Also in terms of self defense and self offense. It is said that Boddhidharma spent 9 years in a cave contemplating many things, one of which was whether or not it is ever correct to be violent. His resolution after so many years of deep introspection laid the philosophical foundation for martial arts. "It is not right to offend another, it is also not right to not be able to defend oneself" Spare the rod and spoil the child (politician). -Nano

cargocollective.com/pinkelephantcollective

 

"An Elephant Never Forgets...."

I agree...

And would add that I understand the sincere need of peaceful people to look for a path towards forgiveness. That being said, I also find it terribly naive. Now if you as an individual need to forgive someone who has wronged you personally, that is your right to do so. But when it comes to serious crimes committed against whole nations, justice and punishment is necessary.

I have been blasted on this sight before for saying some of this, but there seems to be a radical disconnect in pacifist and creative communities in regards to who they are dealing with when it comes to arch villians. Unfortunately, the reality of the matter is that there are people ( mostly men ) who live and walk among us who are predatory sociopaths. Now you can engage in all the dialectical hair splitting you'd like, but these people MUST be dealt with. Violent sociopaths don't respond to intellectual debate or reasoned analysis.

The individuals who engage in organized crime as well as the upper echelons of big government are usually A-type personalities with unusually high testosterone. They are biologically driven towards confontation, violence and emotional overreaction. Men like this have been running the Earth for several thousand years. Yes, there are significant exceptions to this generalization. But as far as industrial civilization goes, these dudes run the show.

Many studies have been done on the most violent offenders in the American penal system. And without exception they are physically tough individuals with high testosterone. I'm not taliking about the bulk of the current prison population. Non violent drug offenses by poor blacks and whites is not who I'm referring to. I'm talking about heavywheight felons.

I know it is very hard for peace minded people to imagine that there are humans who can't be reasoned with. I know pacifistic people believe if you could just get thespredatory individuals to sit down and listen to your reasoned anaysis, or take up meditation, or adopt a vegan diet, then we could put all this violence behind us. Sorry folks, it doesn't work that way.

And in dispensing real justice, you do not have to become what you despise. Self defense in the name of community and freedom and egalitarian values is a right that all of us should own.

As long as peace minded people refuse to acknowledge that there are humans whose behavior is so monstrous that only harsh and swift penalties be meted out in response, then the peace loving community isn't going to find much peace. 

Peace

I believe that giving the people that caused the 9/11 terrorist attacks swift punishment and justice would only hinder us as a people more.  Once we give them there plate of "justice" what then?  What do we do once we execute them, lock them up in prison or bash them for the monstrous event that took place.  Punishing them is only giving the people similar to these monsters more power.   

 By forgiving them we take all of their power away.  What they have done is done, and now it is their choice whether to align themselves with the people and forgive themselves, or keep going on their own path of destruction.  It is like Gandhi stated, " We should meet abuse by forbearance.  Human nature is so constituted that if we take absolutely no notice of anger or abuse, the person indulging it it will soon weary of it and stop".  A revolution to date will accomplish nothing if it has any involvement with violence, punishment or destruction.  If we live by these points, we will never evolve to anything, but follow the same path that has been followed by all the revolutions in history.

Peace will never be found if you are searching for it with violence. 

 

 

 

accountability

A person must be accountable for their actions. The universe pays all debts one way or another.

 

Hope I'm not being too...

much of a thread hi-jacker here...but :) Responding to these last two posts which I assume were directed at my comment above. Your 'idealism' is my 'pragmatism' - I believe that love is what works and is the ONLY thing that can 'stop future warlords from creating wonton (sic) violence' (fighting in chinese restaurants is bad, I agree - sorry warped sense of humor) but seriously wanton violence is abhorrent but if it is met with more violence then? The govt just released the jailhouse interviews with Timothy McVeigh (OK City bomber) and when asked what set him on the path to violence, almost the first thing he says is that he had not found love in his life. WOW! The 'type A high testosterone' types mentioned above too - for me, this is where many women are courageous lovers of such men, brutish possibly, rough, hurtful men, but big hearted women courageously love many of them and humanize their tendencies and urges. If more courageous women loved more of them, then more humanity results. You say "I know it is very hard for peace minded people to imagine that there are humans who can't be reasoned with." That was my point, they can't be reasoned with, they CAN be loved. As for falling off the 'path of the lord', yes there are some advocates of love who are religious - I'm not - I'm an atheist/anti-theist who views religion as a cultish delusion that ought to be listed in the DSM IV - but I love em, hard as they are to love sometimes, I love em. Your 'naive' is my 'enlightened' - past that framework for conflict is LOVE, healing and ultimately peace. SUCH a deal :)

Dear Tjbeck

RIGHT ON :) LOVE in motion, practice, action, healing, progress, EVOLUTION, for ALL. Gotta love that love, see, it grows, it shines brightly, it puts out darkness :) Gotta love it :)

Sorry guys...

I genuinely appreciate your enthusiastic attitude and deep want for love. And I would never tell anyone to stop loving and fighting for that better world you seek on your terms. That being said, I don't think you understood what I was referring too, or maybe you don't want to think it through. Tim McVeigh is not an example of the type of individuals I'm referring too. Tim was a disturbed and misguided young fellow who actually thought he was doing something positive. The men who run organized crime cartels and work for governments implementing scenarios like 9/11 are far beyond Tim McVeigh. Sociopathic predators often know and willingly admit what they're doing is wrong and still do it anyway. Loving them doesn't make them stop or disappear or go away. And as incredible an individual as Ghandi was, that doesn't mean everything that came out of his mouth was right. And he was also assassinated by those who don't find any problem with violence as an answer to their problems. And so was Martin Luther King. And so on and so forth. Like I said , continue to fill your life with love, because the Earth needs more of that for sure. But I believe in approaching this subject realistically. And for those who don't want justice, there are 100's of millions who DEMAND it.

Dear cdcaleo

I did understand and I did think it through (there's the understatement of this lifetime for me) I just don't agree with the opinion you express when you say 'Loving them doesn't make them stop or disappear or go away.' I think that's exactly what it does. And no, Mohandas was not infallible, but I believe he was right on this. When you extol me to 'continue to fill my life with love' well, I don't mind if I do - it's nice :) BUT what is much harder and more necessary, and more to the point what I'm talking about is filling other peoples life with love, with those who need it. In the face of their appallingly bad behaviours it's so hard to do, or even sometimes to see how it might be done. BUT that is what must be done, to disarm, to de-escalate, to defuse, to end the cycle of meeting violence with violence. There is one tool to do that with - love.

what a heck is goin on?

How dare RS take Charles Shaw's comment off the thread?!!! It was very relevent to look at Israel's overpowering influence on international affairs, including 9/11 (that is not anti-semitic!!!). I have not read Charles' attached links but it doesn't even matter. Since when is critisising or investigating any angle become too delicate for RS?? What is this? (Maybe RS really was sold to Murduch).  Themon amongst many things forgotten about the over one million Iraqi victims of this war. Not only 10000 American victims are the casaulties whether they were planned or not, there are untold miseries as consequences. This shows clearly that the whole thing is much bigger and much more sinister than just OIL. I am affraid you guys just gonna have to come face to face with some fragile angles here in order to shed ligth on actualities. Shying away from issues just gonna scare everybody away from real debates, and then it migth as well shop shut.

Found the NEDPG report

It didn't take an FOI to find the NEDPG report, I googled it:

http://wtrg.com/EnergyReport/National-Energy-Policy.pdf

Might not be there long now. I didn't read it (any more than I read the NIST report ... why?) Hope that helps.

There's more on the subject in this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Task_Force

It says that the names of the Task Force members were reported in WaPo in 2007. All cronies.

 One thought: of course the US will survive peak oil. We've only been consuming it for a century. We won't have to go back to those times either. Technology has come a long, long ways, and there are many energy alternatives, conservation measures and a much better-educated populace that has been pretty much idling for a couple of decades -- a lot of us would be eager to get to work rebuilding -- and getting it -right- this time.

Thank you

Thank you for looking this up. It's funny (and embarrassing) that with all the FOI fuss, I never even thought to Google for the report itself.

It's a long report -- I have only had time to skim it -- but pretty innocuous. It reads a lot like a National Geographic article. There's clearly no smoking gun in it, no mention of peak oil (though it does mention a natural gas peak in US production in 2015), and 'Iraq' appears only three times, once in a pie chart. My overall impression is that it's pretty lightweight.

However, the Wiki link you provided was interesting. From one of the 2005 references it cites (http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/8-secrets-of-cheneys...):

"Documents turned over in the summer of 2003 by the Commerce Department as a result of the Sierra Club’s and Judicial Watch’s Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force, contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as two charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.” The documents, dated March 2001, also feature maps of Saudi Arabian and United Arab Emirates oilfields, pipelines, refineries and tanker terminals. There are supporting charts with details of the major oil and gas development projects in each country that provide information on the project’s costs, capacity, oil company and status or completion date."

So my comments about the NEPDG report should all be replaced by more accurate statements about the Energy Task Force internal documents. I will need to do some research so I can update the article and (hopefully) get the details right this time.

I agree with you on surviving peak oil. I think the main thing to take from the peak oil doomsayers is that we can take two very different routes into the post-oil economy: the conscious way, or the dragged-kicking-and-screaming-in-denial way. I'd like to think the former will work out to be a lot easier on people.