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Transcending Online Road Rage

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Treat a man as he appears to be, and you make him worse. But treat a man as if he were what he potentially could be, and you make him what he should be. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Perusing the comments sections of two excellent articles I read recently on Reality Sandwich and Evolver,  I was struck by the abusive tone of many commentators. This had much in common with the tone I have encountered in other online forums. I refer to it as "road rage" because I think there are some parallels to vehicular aggression, which also occurs in a dynamic, anonymous medium. I grew up with and strongly believe in the value of Socratic dialogue, including sharp and forceful Socratic dialogue. But the tone of many online forums does not strike me as the sharp edge of minds exploring their differences as cognitive swordplay. There may sometimes be an element of that, but mostly the dominant flavor is a neurotic venom, a venom that I find myself especially allergic to because I find some of it within as well as without. I have had to hold myself back from online road rage, and in exploring its origins I will look within, as well as without, to understand what's going on and how we might transcend some of this venom.

Online road rage is relatively new, but only because online is relatively new.  In earlier centuries and millennia, political disputes, disputes in the arts and sciences, in philosophy, history, theology, etc. often dripped with vintage venoms every bit as potent as any brewed up today. Communication technology changes faster and more decisively than the human psyche, so we should expect many of the deeper psychological causes of venomous dispute, past and present, to parallel these changes. I'll focus on the present, however, and take a more personal view here. This is meant to be a personal comment on online comments and not a research project on disputatiousness.

We could all find examples, some funny, some grotesquely over-the-top, of online road rage. It would be easy to construct a rant on the discourtesy, egoism, grandiosity, ignorance, etc. of online road-ragers.  It would be easy to go into road rage about road rage, taking vicious glee in exposing the foibles and gaffs of online road-ragers. Shaming road rage from the outside might serve some purpose too, but I feel that to understand it I need to examine it from within, to look at the glowing road rage embers in my own soul.

I am an introverted thinking type and I have this hunch, but don't have a shred of evidence, that many of the online road-ragers of the sort that write multiple paragraph comments are also introverted thinkers. Also, I sense that most of the Reality Sandwich road-ragers are fellow "mutants." They are highly individualized, cognitively dissident folks who have logged thousands of hours in alienating environments such as schools, workplaces, shopping malls, and various social venues where their point of view was not always welcomed, respected, or acknowledged.

As an introverted mutant, my inner world is often more real to me, more dynamically in the foreground of my awareness, than the outer world, which often seems like noisy, in-your-face mundanity, crassness, and mediocrity coming at me in percussive bursts like a series of 30-second TV ads. So I'm used to carrying my inner world, populated by my divergent thoughts, perceptions and images, around in alienating environments.

Furthermore, as a narcissistic personality type, the ruling personality type of our day, I take considerable pride in my inner world. The alienating environments in which I regularly find myself feel like an implicit dis of my self-importance. Everyone is just passing me by,  like I pass them by,  as if I were just another body crowding the sidewalk, the highway, or the corridors of cyberspace. These other bodies crowding the space I am trying to navigate seem ignorant and oblivious to  the greatness of my inner world.  And so I compensate for all the thousand-thousand abrasions and irritations to my self-importance by inflating my inner world. I take excessive and brittle pride in my inner world as the best, most valid, most real, most everything inner world to be found anywhere. 

Retreating from the often abrasive, noisy mundanity of public spaces, I bring my precious inner world home with me and incubate it in my personal space.

I sit in my personal space, mesmerized by the pixellated glow of my computer monitor, exploring this vast online labyrinth of zeros and ones. The walls, floors and ceilings of the labyrinth are all mosaics, and every glowing tile is an artifact of other human psyches. Some tiles are beautiful and intriguing, but many others pop up like greedy little hands that promise to elongate my penis, or share the wealth of a Nigerian prince.

Within the labyrinth there are antechambers where I find mosaics that reflect back my own most personal obsessions -- sexual, intellectual, visual, musical, etc. Whatever entrances me, no matter how exotic or unusual,  I can clutch it in my sweaty palms and get sucked with it into Google wormholes which transport me to hidden recesses where I will find tiles or whole mosaics related to my obsession.

Recently, I logged onto Reality Sandwich and found an article about Terence McKenna, entitled "Stoned Apes." Terence has been on my mind lately, as just a few days ago was the eleventh year since his passing. I consider Terence a colleague,  though I only spoke to him on a few occasions, because our ideas and obsessions paralleled and converged in so many areas.  (Read about a weekend of high strangeness I spent with Terence in 1996:  A Mutant Convergence...) Just glancing at the title of the article, and without reading a word of the text, I felt both interested and irritated.

The irritation carried a strong flavor of trespass, of someone invading my personal space. I heard a brassy ego voice speaking in my head, a voice whose tone and percussive rhythm felt like the honking of an oversized turn-of-the-century brass car horn, the kind with a large, black rubber bulb to push the air: What's this about Terence McKenna? I'm supposed to be the guy who knows about Terence McKenna. Whose this other guy who thinks he knows about Terence McKenna? Why do I have to read this shit? Dammit! Since I'm the guy who knows about Terence McKenna I better read this and find out what he got wrong so I can set things straight. 

On some occasions I have been the irate, red-faced driver, squeezing the black rubber bulb with furious intensity. On this occasion, thankfully, the honking was not in the foreground of my mind; it was more like a car honking on the street a few floors down. The brassy voice was there, getting its two cents in at the periphery of my mind, but mostly I felt curiosity, the title intrigued me, and the article seemed a worthy rabbit hole of zeros and ones.  Intuitively, I sensed that there was some novelty within, something new to learn, and was eager to read it.

I entered the article, traversing passages and corridors formed of a lattice of words and thought-forms. Traversing this particular thoughtscape, the honking in the background continued: What's up with this writing style? I would never write like this. Is this guy British or affected or what? In the foreground of my mind I was intrigued, though also a bit chagrined, at some flaws being exposed in Terence's thinking,  and a specific, important example of how he had distorted some research in a way that was convenient to one of his theories.

This wasn't a surprise because I had long realized that many of Terence's theories worked best if you took a half-metaphorical step back  and interpreted them for general principles without taking the literal specifics too seriously. The few times I talked to Terence, the context was my attempting, very politely and respectfully, to confront him with the flaws of Time Wave Zero and the fudge factors involved, for example, in how he located novelty.  I found him graciously and courageously open to dissenting points of view about even his most cherished ideas. For example, one time he replied to one of my challenges, "You're right, novelty is a slippery concept."  This one sentence acknowledgment stands out in my memory not just for its content, but also for the humble, gracious, even poignant tone of his voice as he acknowledged my points. The tone of Terence's response was a reflection of the largeness of his character, and his deep and humble commitment to the truth, a commitment that transcended Terence the showman, narcissist, trickster, self-promoter and so forth. It also reflected Terence's genius with spoken language, his ability to impregnate a single sentence with so much meaning.

The way I saw Terence handle divergent perspectives is a gold standard for me. No doubt there were other moments I did not witness when Terence, like other mortals, was squeezing his black rubber bulb and honking with road rage. The point is not about Terence, but about a particular layer of the reality sandwiches that we make and consume on a daily basis. There are usually higher and lower options with the choices we make in the various realities we encounter. There are disagreements that we choose to handle with grace, and others that we handle leaning on the horn and shouting invective at another body moving through time and space or cyberspace.

Commenting online can be a fast, anonymous and cheap adrenaline buzz. Unlike lashing out a friend or coworker, the repercussions seem minor. We usually don't see the face of the person we are objecting to. They are like someone whizzing by us at ninety miles-per-hour  on the highway. We see the glass and metallic glare of their speeding exoskeleton, but any human form is at best an abstracted blur.

The thought-forms of other psyches traversing cyberspace can sometimes be thorns in our side or even splinters in our mind. We  feel we know exactly what they got wrong. But sometimes the other gets something right, or at least half right, about something that we don't know or don't want to know.  Suddenly this stranger is showing up in our precious, mental inner world saying something objectionable about something that we know a lot about, and in which we have a lot invested. 

The "Stoned Apes" article at times intrigued me with the very specific flaws it found about a McKenna theory that I always found a bit dubious anyway.  At other times I felt a bit offended by the author's condescending and superior attitude toward Terence, and his failure to find or acknowledge anything of value in Terence's work. After I finished the article, I started to read some of the comments and found that many were pointing out some of the flaws I had also found in the article. But the tone of some of these commentators was venomous, and I found whatever content these comments contained was eclipsed by the sense of them as stereotypical examples of online road rage. Just as the author of the article didn't find much merit in Terence, the commentators found no merit whatsoever in any part of the article, which to me seemed to be similarly unjust.

I found that I had a more allergic reaction to the comments than the article, and quickly got restive and left off reading them. Following some forgotten chain of links,  I found myself pulled into an even more intriguing article posted on Evolver entitled "The dark legacy of Carlos Castaneda." This article was a rabbit hole in many senses,  a fascinating glimpse into the hidden, cultic world of Castaneda's personal sphere. I had read other exposés of Castaneda, and seen a documentary on the subject, but this article was well-written and researched and provided many novel details. I had long considered Castaneda a hoaxer-genius so the article wasn't disillusioning. When I got to the end of this article I read a few comments and found many parallel examples to the road rage tone I found in the comment section of "Stoned Apes." The subject matter had changed, but the tone and tactics of irate commentators had not.

Like most other mortals,  I've had some disagreements I've handled well, and many, many that I've handled poorly.  Leaving an online comment can be a fast and easy way to vent, but what I try to practice, and recommend that others consider, is to slow it down and relinquish some of the coarseness and aggression that often come with anonymity. When I leave a comment I try to remember that in addition to higher and lower options I have in the content of what I say, I also have higher and lower options in the tone with which I convey my content. I try to remember to ask myself: What does my tone say about me and where I'm coming from? 

I also try to remember to respect the otherness of the other, to realize that I am encountering another ship distantly passing my ship in the night of time. Through the mist of zeros and ones  I can't even make out the outline of this other ship. I know little or nothing about where it's been or what it's gone through, what forces may have pressed upon it to cause it to yield up the words it has proclaimed that I object to. Very likely this other ship has also passed through alienating currents and storms.  It has also passed through obscuring fogs and dark, despairing nights. The view from the deck of this other ship is different, its maps are different, its navigational instruments are calibrated differently. But it is another ship with its own structural integrity, its own trajectory and inertial force, and I need to respect that.  As I steer my ship through the sometimes-misty darkness of cyberspace, I know that the wind in my sails will drive me to areas where other ships are navigating the same space. Ship-to-ship signaling is crucial, but many ships handle it differently. Some ships use their canons to fire across the bow of other ships. Others are more diplomatic,  and send signals that encourage everyone to navigate more respectfully.

Image by whereisatcourtesy of Creative Commons license. 

Comments

Thank You

Thank you for posting this. I have often felt the same, and noticed with irony that some of the readers of this wonderful website devoted to "evolving consciousness" deal with others' differing ideas with little or no consciousness at all. How can we hope to usher in a more highly evolved consciousness when we cannot even treat each other with kindness and respect? I would encourage readers of this fine website to consider approaching the forum from a space of SHARING instead of a space of DEBATE. This way, all ideas are encouraged and no one is berated simply for having a different perspective.

Have you hugged your enemy today?

never

I never hugged my enemies knowing that it is difficult to forgive them.

If I do, i am not being honest to myself and act like a hypocrite. If there are people who'll tell me they hug their enemies and not forgive them, I don't believe such hug is sincere.

Enemies will remain enemies if you'll not learn to forgive them.

 

 

Harold

Darumaturgy

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com Thanks Stevie. Daruma: Thank you for those very revealing comments. You were the most voluminous flamer of the author of "Stoned Apes" so we can look toward your comments for revelations about the sources of web rage. When I wrote the above article, which I described as a personal comment, I had done zero research on the topic. Just in the last hour, just before you posted, I did a bit of online research and found that a number of psychologists agreed that there was a disinhibiting effect of being online and that much online behavior showed signs of regression. Your comments reveal a disinhibited exhibitionism where you appear to be spilling out the contents of your psyche without much regard for relevance. Your second comment, which takes the form of a garbled dystopian sci-fi story, I read as aggressive non-sequitur. If I enter someone's space and go on an extended monologue irrelevant to anything they've said, it is an act of aggression. Your first comment where you talk about choking your friends speaks for itself. Much narcissism is also apparent. You inflate yourself as a time-traveler from the future, while everything you say seems to illustrate the all too contemporary psychopathology we find in cyberspace. I am not trying to psychoanalyze you, that would be impossible and inappropriate, but I am on appropriate ground analyzing what posts on an article about posts say about the psychology of posting. Your comments reveal a disinhibited exhibitionism that is doing its own self-referential thing completely independent of anyone else's content. This is something people should keep in mind when they get flamed on line. The troll or flamer is not saying anything about you, but about themselves. The words they leave behind are usually an X ray of their own lonely, tormented psyches. I feel these posts confirm what I suggested in the article, that extended flaming is often the acting out of frustrated, lonely introversion. The only reason I can think of for posting a story as a comment is a feeling that it would get more attention than posting it as your own blog. As Jung pointed out, where power rules, love recedes, and when love reigns, power recedes. With so many of us not feeling sufficiently loved, acting out power games online is a poor, but convenient substitute.

Dude you should write a book

There is some pretty cool stuff in there

A Cry for Help

Daruma's run-on compound adjective: "...with no narcissistic-introverted loner-psychopath-warrior-sage- types to protect them" may suggest an underlying cause to the acting out that may be true for other pathologizing posters. It sounds like he feels unable to protect himself from himself, unable to deal with the neurotic chaos within as an in-house problem, and therefore he feels compelled to make it a public spectacle. Psychologists like Martin Seligman and others have pointed out that most psychopathology (eating disorders, self-mutilation, online aggression, etc.) happen when people are alone. The reason is that when alone, many people find that they are unable to defend themselves from what Jung called "psychic entropy." Psychic entropy typically takes the form of looping, negative thought fragments. Unable to protect themselves from theiir own psychic entropy, by directing the negative, fragmentary thoughtforms at others via online acting out, they attempt to vent the chaos into the outer world. 

Also, since I was an English teacher for 14 years, and am still a creative writing teacher, that the acting out should be in the form of such garbled fiction writing, writing so in need of remediation, I can't help but to read it all as an unconscious cry for help. Of course, what any school teacher learns early on is that both positive and negative reinforcement will encourage the continuation of a behavior. Attention to acting out equals more acting out. If attention of any kind is given to pathologized posting, there will inevitably be more. But in this case where pathologized posting is the subject of inquiry, this is a good thing because we are getting revealing specimens. Even as our poster tries to hide his motives in irrelevance, he makes himself the poster child of the neediness that drives this sort of behavior.

Thanks for this

I so very much agree =) Namaste!

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you are unique - all you do is ground-breaking

Exceptional

I admire this article and many points it expresses. I find it expresses awareness, and regard for the reality of the human condition.  Seems to me we're "all in it together" whether we like it or not.

 

Clues to so many riddles or perplexities we encounter in others, when our paths cross -- likely lie within us, not them. But its dark inside our own psyche, the deeper we go.

 

Not only poor lighting, but motivation can be conflicted too.  Such introspection as J. Zap engages can take a lot more self-critical honesty, or raw personal substance (not something we learn from geometry or physics), than many of us can muster.  Takes personal integrity -- the right stuff, I'd call it.

 

I find a lot of unusual personal honesty in the thoughts J. Zap offers, not in confronting somebody else who makes him (or any of us) mad, but for looking within.  A real discussion, in search of what relates. Not what alienates. 

 

Following quote from a fictional character I admire comes to mind in this connection:

 

"There's a dark side to each and every human soul. We want to be Obi-Wan Kenobi, and for the most part we are. But there's a little Darth Vader in all of us. Because the thing is, this ain't no either/or proposition. Because we're talking about dialectics, the good and the bad merging into--us. You know, you can run but you can't hide. My experience: face the darkness, stare it down and own it. It's like brother Nietzsche says, being human is a complicated gig. So give that old dark night of the soul a hug. And howl the eternal yes."

Jonathan Zap of

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com Thanks Florries and Mr. Akers, much appreciated. One of my Zap Oracle cards (interact with it for free on my site) is entitled "LIght and Dark are Interrelated" and has a photo of an optical illusion cube which from one side looks like the complete head of Yoda and from the other Darth Vader. Here is the text: ur ego may judge the light and dark threads of the tapestry as good or bad, but a non-dualistic view sees them as interrelated. John Toland's biography of Hitler begins with a quote from a Graham Greene character: "The greatest saints have been men with a more than a normal capacity for evil, and the most vicious men have sometimes narrowly evaded sanctity." The dark side of the force is implicit in the Babylon Matrix. We must accept it, but not allow ourselves to be ruled by it. Although history is largely about the dark side of the force, we must not fully externalize the dark side, but must first grapple with it from within. If you are not aware of the dark side of the force operating within yourself then you are in a state of dangerous blindness and the dark force is able to act as an autonomous complex within you. Many people are in a state of denial about this because "dark side of the force" sounds dramatic and exotic, something pertaining to serial killers and Nazis. Actually, it is more often mundane and may be ubiquitous in our thinking. Here's a very mundane example of the dark side of the force: There is someone I am intensely attracted to but they are unavailable and/or do not return the attraction. I feel a force in me that wants them to want me, wants them not to be who they are, but what I want them to be. I feel a force that doesn't want them to be free to choose what they want (unless it is also what I want), but that just wants them. There is a rage inside the force because it is not getting everything it wants. The rage is not righteous indignation at some injustice; it is the rage of frustrated infantile omnipotence. The dark force inside of me assumes that the world is there to satisfy my wants and everything I want should be there for my taking. The force wants what it wants when it wants it. How dare anyone else take what is mine, and it is all mine! The example above is just one of the myriad versions of the dark side of the force I can find within myself. Because I also have a will and a conscience and other forces within me, the dark force does not have to rule me, even though I do have to acknowledge and integrate its presence. If there aren't strong enough countervailing forces within me, then the dark thought forms in the above example could turn me into a stalker, a predator, or some other sort of malignant narcissist. Indeed, this is exactly what the dark side of the force does to many who are out there on the street and in the corridors of power. Here is an example of two people grappling with the dark side of the force, one in what seems to be a mature way, the other in a way that is immature and/or insincere: Pastor Rick Warren asked Obama: "Does evil exist, and if it does, do we ignore it, do we negotiate with it, do we contain it, or do we defeat it?" Obama's response: "Evil does exist. I mean, we see evil all the time. We see evil in Darfur. We see evil in parents have viciously abused their children and I think it has to be confronted. It has to be confronted squarely and one of the things that I strongly believe is that, you know, we are not going to, as individuals, be able to erase evil from the world…Now, the one thing that I think is very important for us is to have humility in how we approach the issue of confronting evil, but, you know, a lot of evil has been perpetrated based on the claim that we were trying to confront evil…And I think one thing that's very important is having some humility in recognizing that, you know, just because we think our intentions are good doesn't always mean that we're going to be doing good…" One hour later, Warren asked McCain the same question about evil and what we should do about it. McCain's response began this way: "Defeat it." Grappling with the dark side of the force means grappling with it within as well as without. I Stood Upon a High Place I stood upon a high place, And saw, below, many devils Running, leaping, and carousing in sin. One looked up, grinning, And said, "Comrade! Brother!" — Stephen Crane (1871-1900)

Good questions

Nice contrast between two differing answers to the question.  Obama being an exceptional orator, and intelligent guy -- no surprise at his more thoughtful sounding answer compared with McCain.  On the other hand, McCain's history as POW establishes a basis for reply Obama doesn't have. Very different foundations of experience, and moral credibility in terms of the 'talk vs walk' dichotomy.

 

Overall, most tingling to my spidey sense: I wonder what this Pastor Warren is up to, inquiring of these guys thus.  Idle curiosity?  Somehow my attention is more alerted that way, than directed to the respondents and their replies. To me it just feels, this is what Pastor Warren might slyly intend for us (as his audience in this).  That we focus on the responses not the stimulus -- that we 'pay no attention to that man behind the curtain' as it were?  He's the one cueing, the director, calling the shot in this little 'staged scenery' as it appears (and bouquets). 

 

I can't help thinking McCain's concept of 'evil' -- the 'pea' of Pastor Warren's question (if 'shell game' is a valid metaphor here) -- might implicitly derive, more than Obama's, from the historic horrors of mid 20th century, man's inhumanity to man, world wars, rise of fascism and its aggression, dilemma posed to allied nations -- all that.  Leftist totalitarianism (Stalin's communism) and rightwing (like Hitler, Mussolini ..).  If so, different historic examples, with contrasting 'devil in the details,' may inform the difference between these replies.

 

Here, real life provides the grist for inquiry's mill.  STAR WARS and the Force, with its dark and light sides, with protagonist conflicted by their opposition within him -- not just opposing him as 'good guy' to the other as 'bad' -- is a nice thematic mirror from fiction.  The Force has been noted as a re-dress of 'mana' -- term from ethnology you may know.  A pervasive mystical-like force, of impersonal nature, with potential for good or ill.  Medicine power.  Humans can access it, but that involves intention, which will be 'light' or 'dark' in nature.  And can make 'bad medicine' (harm) or 'good' (heal).

 

FWIW - the literary-fictional theme of supernatural evil, for example Stoker's DRACULA and its legacy, extremely interesting to me in this light.  A motif I call 'the village in fear' reflected therein -- the villagers in the tavern who dummy up with unfriendly suspicion when stranger arrives (Van Helsing, Harker, whoever).  They're not worried he's a vampire, they can see he's not.  They have a worse fear -- that he's here to try and deal with this Dracula (which they see as their problem not some interloper's).  And will fail, like the other's who've tried to slay the dragon, and whose bones litter the ground at the entrance of its lair.

 

And as they've learned, when the would-be hero fails -- the evil will take out its displeasure with the attempt upon the village, in a spree of violence and horror that will make the once-a-month feeding on some unfortunate peasant wench seem like a small price to pay, by comparison.  The villagers understand, from Dracula's pov, its up to them to do what they'd best do, to keep any strangers who've come to town on some kind of 'vampire slayer' trip - well away from the castle where his crypt resides.  If they know what's good for them.  Or else.

 

We know the vampire can bite a human without killing, and slave him to its will (like Renfield), have him do the vampire's bidding, guard his coffin by day etc.  But the villagers in the tavern haven't been bitten.  Yet they might just as well have been, because they are acting the part of Dracula's servants and helpers -- even as they cower in fear under the shadow of his castle crossing their village when the sun sets each day.

 

And I do find a comparison in fact, in history.  The intimidation of fascist aggression, for allied nations -- prior to their entering the war, to defeat evil (borrowing from McCain's rhetoric) -- resembles to me a subliminal manipulation much like Dracula's effect upon the village in fear.  

 

Prime Minister Chamberlain: Hitler will get mad at us if we don't let him have these little tributes he demands, and we don't want to cause him to get worse, so -- I've got this letter, signed by Mr. Hitler, and I think we can have peace in our times.  In America, we wanted no part of it either (and who can blame anyone for wanting to stay our of trouble, out of harm's way?).  I'm no expert on history, but the correspondence between history and fiction, when it comes to the dark side and light side of the human condition, interests me.

 

I appreciate your discussion, looking within at both the dark and the light, without flinching (most important, considering).  These are vital keys to understanding what confronts us, consistent with your commentary by my reading.  A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step, and proceeds one at a time.  

 

Among my many, profound reservations, not just doubts, about stoned apes (and etc.), far beyond anything of scientific significance, is a charming beguiling invitation it offers -- leading in any and all directions -- other than dire realities of the human condition we face or turn away from (to our own best interest, or peril).  Nothing to do with shoes or ships or ceiling wax, or theories about whether pigs have wings.  A little nonsense now and then is treasured by the best of men, but ... the village in fear faces a human crisis, perhaps calling for something else.

ships in the fog

Love the ship metaphor - beautiful, if I dare say so myself. The whole article is as well, but I feel like it's summed up perfectly by this paragraph:

The "Stoned Apes" article at times intrigued me with the very specific flaws it found about a McKenna theory that I always found a bit dubious anyway. At other times I felt a bit offended by the author's condescending and superior attitude toward Terence, and his failure to find or acknowledge anything of value in Terence's work. After I finished the article, I started to read some of the comments and found that many were pointing out some of the flaws I had also found in the article. But the tone of some of these commentators was venomous, and I found whatever content these comments contained was eclipsed by the sense of them as stereotypical examples of online road rage. Just as the author of the article didn't find much merit in Terence, the commentators found no merit whatsoever in any part of the article, which to me seemed to be similarly unjust.

I feel like this is what I was getting at in the comment I made on the "Stoned Ape" article, which was subsequently lost in the swirl of what may be called an "online rush hour traffic jam." Essentially what I was trying to get across is that both arguments had been rendered moot by the vitriol. Akers seemed to descend into a fevered, ego-driven crusade against McKenna's character, not his theory.

Daruma (as he's aptly demonstrated here) makes little to no sense - while objections to Akers' points may have been valid, the character and tone of these replies disintegrated any integrity they could have contained. I have witnessed similar forms of discourse both online and in the real world - I can attest to the fact that the egos which generate them are often megalomaniacal, and in a violent, unnatural state of flux.

In navigating the zeroes and ones, it seems that complex arguments mimic their medium, becoming binary, a mutually exclusive this-not-that which belies the rich complexity of anything so wonderful as psychedelia, evolution, etc...

anyway... excellent psycho-social analysis of an ugly phenomenon. It's just as important to look at the "how" of dialogue/argument as well as the points and facts.

ps

also, mildly related, are comments getting deleted under the stoned ape article? I could have sworn there was like 100 comments, now there's only like 30.

155

Hi Mental Pyro,

As of this moment, there are 155 comments to "Stoned Apes." If any comments have been deleted, it was because they were spam or didn't follow the comment guidelines, which can be found here: http://www.realitysandwich.com/comments_guidelines

I'll admit aggression

Though I feel that the interaction of cyber dwellers is a very unique breeding ground for creativity. Especially with communication, we can now creatively communicate with one another. Because the spatial relationship allows for anonymity we can truly see how people act when thinking I am invisible besides a name. The internet is blossoming with innovative thinking and I admire this articles very balanced and justified approach. Though it is a shame that regardless where one goes there will always be the toads, the trolls and the flameless. "in order for there to be order... there must first be disorder"

Fluctuating Comment Numbers

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.comI'll have some more comments soon, and Ken can clear this up, but I think what Mental Pyro is referring to is that the number of comments on the "most commented" ranking list on the main page don't necessarily reflect the total number of comments for an article, but probably reflect the number of recent comments in the last five days? week? etc. This is necessary because otherwise the most commented article of all time would be at the top, etc. and more recent articles would rarely make the list.

Comment Numbers

Yes, the number in the "most commented" list are for comments from the previous week. You can see th total number of comments below the teaser, when you are logged in, or at the bottom of the blog, above the first comment.

It Takes a Vampire Village

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.comSome very interesting comments from Mr. Akers on the psychology of the Vampire Village and how an equilibrium of fear can get victims to do the devil's work. There's a prominent example of that in the news this week which I'll get to. This may seem off topic, but since we are discussing a symptom of darkness, it is legitimate to look at some deeper causes. Your point about McCain and Obama's response to Pastor Warren is an interesting one and points out two key aspects of dealing with darkness. But first, to touch on Pastor Warren as the man behind the curtain, what I see is yet another successful attempt to merge religion and politics. Instead of a foreign policy question, he essentially asks a spiritual question with strong religious overtones. Both candidates share in the blame for allowing the merging in that they both allowed a pastor to be their examiner. One aspect of darkness, the one Obama brings up, is that you first locate your inner darkness so that you don't project it out in the world. Jung was giving a seminar in Germany once when a parade of Nazis was literally goose-stepping in the street below and someone asked: "What can we do about the rampant evil out there?" Jung replied: "Begin by removing your own personal shadow from the world." As Goethe said, "If you want to clean up the whole world, begin with your doorstep." This is a crucial aspect that many who see themselves as white knights in shining armor forget. On the other hand, if that's the only aspect you know about it, you are going to be impotent in the face of virulent evil that is not reducible to your projections. A generous interpretation of what McCain said would relate it to this aspect---some evils do need to be defeated, not psychologized. As a Taoist sage said, "If there is a demon in your circle, they must be pushed out." The people falling into the vampire village mindset may need to take on that second aspect. A classic example from this week in the news. Another pastor, Terry Jones of the ironically named "Dove World Outreach Center," an obscure moron who wants his personal rage to be a public spectacle, burns a Koran. Just about nobody in the media give it any attention, but a prominent moron, Karzi, decides to give a speech about it to pander to fundamentalists. Fundamentalists in Afghanistan respond by killing a couple of dozen people. Obama and General Petraeus give speeches condemning the Koran burning, and everyone else in the Vampire Village joins in condemning the book burning. They don't, however, condemn the far greater evil of the fundamentalists who feel entitled to slay innocent people because someone thousands of miles away burned a book. People on the right, especially some of the full-blown morons like Sarah Palin, Donald Trump, et al, talk like they are wielding a fiery brand and a pitchfork and completely ignore the first aspect, the examining of themselves and their nation for darkness aspect. People on the left often fail to recognize the second aspect, the need to sometimes defeat evil, and often fall into Vampire Village strategies and seem to wield Neville Chamberlain's umbrella. The Vampire Village, however, also conjures in me a vast subject I have written about at length, a theory that there is a largely unrecognized X-factor that helps to push human darkness into so many of its surreal over-the-top permutations. Here's a link to the introductory essay: http://www.zaporacle.com/mind-parasites-energy-parasites-and-vampires/ I suspect that what I call "mind parasites" a term I borrow from Colin Wilson, may be one of the forces behind online road rage, but this is literally and figuratively opening a very big can of worms.

Jonathan Zap of

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com I would also like to express some appreciation for Daruma is the only one giving us actual specimens of web rage which sometimes provide revelations about key points I failed to mention. For example, this comment: "The difference in our approaches to grappling are obvious. My ears are cauliflowered, yours are not. Now hide with the women for there will be bloodshed-" This comment illustrates an aspect of web rage that others have commented on---that it is the safest venue ever conceived for a bit of macho posturing. One writer used the analogy of a dog that he knew that would always bark at him from behind a fence. One day the fence fell down and the dog stopped barking. Without the safety of the fence it was intimidated and couldn't bark. When the fence was put back up it started barking again. A well-known sports writer, but whose name I can't recall, did his own investigation of a web rage incident a couple of months ago. A sports fan, objecting to something or other he wrote in a column, posted the most degrading comments dripping with venom and that even included insults and threats to the sports writer's family. The sports writer did a bit of cyber-sleuthing to find out who this guy was and paid him a visit. The offending poster turned out to be this very meek guy who apologized profusely. The sports writer found that despite himself he couldn't help liking the guy who in person seemed completely inoffensive. Of course I'll feel foolish if it turns out that Daruma has a titanium alloy exoskeleton bristling with razor-sharp spikes and that he lives under a live volcano surrounded by weeping victims who avert their eyes when he approaches, etc. but that's the kind of chance I'm willing to take. I think the anonymous fencing of cyberspace is what allows for most of the barking.

Fascinating article

Hey there--wanted to say that I really appreciate this article and the many insightful points made therein and by fellow commenters too---excepting Daruma who I must admit I skip over-guessing I just can't grok his point of view. 

I am also often discouraged by the all too frequent and unnecessary pettiness and egotism displayed by online road rage.  I respectfully disagree though with one poster that we should "share not debate" because the inference that debates are crass and sharing isn't seems rather uninformed.  I recall a fabulous movie with Denzel Washington called The Great Debaters which illustrated how genuine debate can and ought to be executed with respect, intelligence, honor and passion without demeaning anyone personally.

There's more I'd like to respond to specifically but am crunched for time regrettably but I would like to offer a suggestion to JZ on format.  Please consider using paragraphs/spacing in your own comments like Mr. Atkers.  I find it difficult to read such large chunks of script without breaks, kinda strains my eyes.

Also, wanted to check out the oracle card you referenced but when I did a search at your website for "Light and Dark are Interrelated"  it didn't come up.  Any suggestions?  Thanks.

Aho~Mitakuye Oyasin~All My Relations

i think it is remarkable

that nobody points out how insulting it is to the intelligence of people who enjoyed Terence Mckenna as a thinker and great speaker, to keep hearing this nonsense that if you like Terence for what ever reason you are then some kind of cult lunatic.This has not been taken to task by mister Zap, but he sure is wrapped up in all this internet rage stuff.Which I agree is something to look at, however I do not think that the examples so far offered are a perfect fit.I see the reasons for bringing this up here now, and I see that a in depth discussion could be further pursued in this vein, however just because mister Zap brings it up and has offered some of his ideas in this regard, it does not follow that he has nailed this vampire, if i might use the metaphor that he has brought this to.What I mean is that I think bringing Jung into the argument tends to direct the attention to the problems Jung was struggling with.In the medium of the internet it is not one size fits all, it becomes more difficult to pin down.I am not a techie person, and I am not that well read on the science that may or may not debunk Terence in so far as his theories, but that does not make people that enjoyed him as a spokesperson for the psychedelic reality that accompanies art, poetry, philosophy weirdo cultists.Jung did not just talk about the shadow, he was all about the collective unconscious.If you attack Terence and anybody that appreciated him, and keep hitting on the same dead horse, that they are just a bunch of sicko cultists, then where does it end?Shall we deal with the shadow of Mister "all Terence people are weirdo cultists"? Well heck I like a lot of people that some poetry/philosophy phobic could accuse of being a "cultist" if you follow that skew wise logic.Yes there is a huge can of worms here.I agree that there is a cult like aspect to anything in this world that is out of the ordinary.Occult means hidden knowledge,the Logos means speaking of this in some way, Gnosis another Greek word, "knowledge" direct knowledge.Yes Terence had a colorful imagination, he was out there in the public view, he was a writer.And so was Tim Leary, and Robert Anton Wilson.They struggled with these things.We struggle with them.I have been very interested in the Surrealist movement, I have pursued surrealism as a writer/poet. You can study that art movement in a university, but that does not make you a surrealist.I have always loved the art, and I follow the precursors of surrealism, whom Andre Breton traced back to the gnostics.Regardless if you agree with Andre about art and where it comes from, Terence liked to say "surrealism, jazz, rock and roll and catastrophe theory" Which is a nod to the importance of the surrealist art movement of the 20th century, and also the importance of music, jazz being another underground movement.I guess we can call anybody that lives abstract expressionism or jazz a cultist.Yes the can of ouroboric worms just keeps opening.And I haven't even begun to speak about this internet "road rage" topic.

Thank the pigs!

Master Yeshua also loves and has compassion for the money-changers, Pharisees and scribes.

He also has compassion for the demons of Legion when he agrees to send them out into the pigs. And yes he dearly loves the pigs and yes the pigs agree to do this and yes we should really thank the pigs!

You're welcome.

Cult Lunatics?

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com"Wild Thing" wrote: "... if you like Terence for what ever reason you are then some kind of cult lunatic." I don't have time to reread all of the Stoned Apes text and comments but did Mr. Akers or anyone else really say that? Perhaps you could supply some quotes to support where you got that. From what I recall, Mr. Akers was criticizing some few McKenna supporters who responded as if Terence were above reproach, and that it was shameful to challenge his ideas. Terence certainly invited challenge, and nobody I've ever met who engaged McKenna seriously was into defending him in that way. Perhaps some few, but highly vocal people who have come to Terence's work after his death have elevated him to a cult icon, a patron saint of psychonauts, and from some of these there might be extreme defensiveness. Sometimes cultish behavior arises independent of the will of the object of cultish devotion. As Jung once said, "I'm glad I'm Jung and not a Jungian." I think Mr. Akers was objecting to cultic defensiveness and blind devotion but did not imply that anyone interested in McKenna was a cultic lunatic. For example, I clearly present myself in this article as a Terence McKenna guy, and as someone who has written and spoken extensively about TM and the convergence of our ideas in certain key areas (for example: http://www.zaporacle.com/logos-beheld/). There will be much more about that convergence in my upcoming book on the "Singularity Archetype." Despite all that, Mr. Akers did not dismiss me as a "cultic lunatic," but has instead been engaging me in some respectful Socratic dialogue right here in these comments.

perhaps

I don't read the surface "socratic dialogue" I read the stuff that was stuck in most on the responses from mister Akers, which held all this monologue almost like hidden within all the other stuff.So it is no wonder that mister Zap did not see anything. Because well, he doesn't have time to bother.But he does have time to once again defend him.And toss in the surface "socratic dialogue" Well that is all fine and dandy.And we might as well ignore all that other stuff, because, I mean it brings up shadow stuff.In my first response to mister Akers, I was attempting to have a dialogue.But in each response he kept putting this slight of hand comments about people being cult followers, and in each case.Otherwise he did say other things that were more engaged, but he still had to keep banging that same cult thing.I don't care if mister Zap doesn't have the time to really look into it, however it did go to his whole "internet rage" argument.And I don't care if people want to think that anybody that don't agree with mister Akers is a cult weirdo or whatever he means.Basically I think this whole issue has become obscured, and now mister Zap has side stepped it.Because he is too busy.And i don't blame him.But this whole thing came up because of mister Akers, and he still is being illusive.It reminds me of that old elephant story.Even mister Zap is still arguing that there just may be some cultish followers of Terence, because well, mister Akers said so.

Ah, on second thought I think I am beginning to see what is going on here, and why mister Akers and Mister Zap are on the same wave length.It is for the reason of writing books,and the whole "cult follower" thing I said cult lunatic or cult weirdo, but to be more "socratic" lets just say cult follower like.And mister Zap has some examples, as does mister Akers, and they have to beat that drum because it is a new cottage industry, and Terence Mckenna is well, a real big fish now to toss out there for examples.Yes I see it all now.And I also see mister Zaps and mister Akers wheels turning in their heads.Cult follower person =internet road rage=socratic dialogue, yup.

Don't Care Means you Do Care

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com You may want to check the comment I added earlier today to the Stoned Apes comments because I suggest a different theory (from the web rage one) for the excess negativity getting expressed. Wild Thing: You're getting a bit garbled in the above, what I said I didn't have time for is to find the quotes which you as the one putting forth a proposition should supply. You make the assertion that Mr. Ackers accuses everyone who thinks well of TM of being a cultic lunatic, therefore the burden on you is to supply the evidence for that. Also, I think you need to be a bit more self-reflective about your own motivations and emotions. For example you began two sentences with "I don't care..." These are self-contradicting statements since if you didn't care you wouldn't bother to make a statement about it. The most classic I-don't-care statement is "I don't care what other people think." A statement inevitably made to other people to affect their thinking about the speaker.

garbled

Again you side step, by hurling the "garbled" word at me, i was wondering how long it would take before you used that on my commentary.I gave the evidence, you just did not want to hear it.Again you defend mister Akers.You side step anything that does not back up your argument.What ever that is.And then you sound like a lawyer, that say I have to have evidence.That's right don't believe me,oh and now do what you accuse others of doing.Give me your "new age" holier then thou, you should do more "self reflection"sounds cult like to me....

comment.And yes if i ended all my comments to the other person that does not just go along with everything i say with...pip pip, "but you should be more self reflective."Hey what's the difference between you and mister Akers who always in this comments to anyone that does not agree with his "all you cult people that don't agree with me" come backs.I don't need no stinking evidence mister Zap.I just made this all up because I am a cult follower, that is full of internet road rage that does not reflect on anything, who is becoming garbled, because I dared call mister akers on his  constant inclusion of sneaky comments about cult followers.But are so clear because well you said anyone that you can't use your lawyer tactics on, you can just call them "GARBLED" Frankly I think your whole premise here is garbled.You and mister Akers Cherry pick your little agendas, and then sneak around certain defensive tactics, like calling people cult followers, or calling them garbled, as soon as anyone actually cares to bother to call you on it.But I know you a are too busy, and after all your premise has to remain consistant because you have build the whole ediface of your facade upon it.Oh and you can toss in some quotes by Jung, and so on.

All you have to do is go back and read mister Akers whole agenda in his endless comments, and you will see all the references to 'cult followers" stuff.But I know you will not do that because you actually have a very similar agenda.This whole thing that you are now beating on, the"internet road rage" thing is so like Mister Akers "cult follower" thing, and in fact they back each other up and dovetail each other.Almost like you and mister Akers figured this whole ruse out together before hand.Almost.

Wild Things

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com I think your last message speaks for itself about where you are coming from.

and i think

Side step it, once again.

I have been a cult follower

I have been a cult follower since I first went to Disneyland.I formed my own little cult of mickey mouse club kids.We played tiddly winks with smashed copper pennies we placed on the railroad tracks.We made up secret club member signs by making funny faces.Years later I started an acid head club with my teenage friends, and we said the cult words...turn on, tune in, drop out" that we got from the biggest cult leader of all time.Somewhere along the line I became a cult member of another cult, and we gathered and performed rituals, and flapped our arms around a lot.We read cult books and drank cult wine.But before that I was initiated into the cult of Dada, and I met a lot of cult like poets, who belonged to the cult of Blake, Keats, Shelley, Coleridge,ect.I also belonged to the Baudelaire cult, the Rimbaud cult , the Dylan Thomas cult, the Bob Dylan cult, the Beatles cult, the Stones Cult, the Jim Morrison cult, the Hendrix cult, and so on.I have been into all the cults including the Blue Oyster one.I even joined the Crowley cult, but the final cult I had yet to join was the infamous Terence Mckenna cult.When I finally did, I had to kiss James Joyce's cult manual 'Finnegans Wake' three times.And now i will defend Terence's outlandish theories with my last breath.I will do internet road rage at the drop of a elf hat, to make sure Terence will gather lunatic fringe followers until the purple cow comes home.Om shanti Om shroom.

Meltdown

I wonder if anyone has seen the STAR TREK episodes where the "programming source" - the in-control, all powerful (usually turns out to be a computer) -- seizes up and fries its brains, going ka-blooey ... when it is confronted by reasoned appeal, with a fatal, fundamental contradiction between its mission as stated ("the Good of the Body") and its implementation of that mission by thought programming?

 

I don't know how familiar people are with the basic storyline of these episodes, recycled with variations from one to another.  Nomad, Landru, Vaal, etc.  

 

The computer thinks that 'the good' lies in peace and order, in nobody ever saying or doing anything to make -- or might make -- somebody else uncomfy -- if not downright unhappy!

 

The computer, not being human, doesn't understand that the human potential is irreducibly ambiguous.  Dr. Jekyll didn't either.  The human quantity is just not subject to alchemical purification, that will bring about a utopian society.

 

If we every got rid of our evil and refined the soul to pure good and wonderfulness -- we will have lost the one thing that is actually ours, by right: our humanity. Warts and all.  Indeed, in another TREK episode, Capt Kirk undergoes a 'doubling' split -- into an all-good, and an all-evil (Jekyll/Hyde) doppleganger.  But the 'good' one (who has the right ethos) lacks qualities the 'bad' has, on account of which neither has its full humanity and potential.  Instead of getting rid of the bad one, and going with the 'good' one ... its necessary to re-unite them and get our whole humanity -- our whole Capt -- back.

 

 

There is a sense of panic I'm seeing in renewed, intensified "napalm" (or vitriol) content and posting activity -- especially in the posts of (blog avatar withheld) and (blog avatar withheld). To me, this suggests an awareness that light and reason are perhaps taking the lead, against contrary designs of steely determination -- to set limits on it, telling it: "That's as far as you go -- step over this line, and we will attack you."

 

If attackers unwittingly spray their napalm in too wide a swath -- spread their effort to thin, too many targets.... If more people start engaging conscience and regard for things that matter in this TM-related discussion arena .... if the reasoned calm, principle and authentic ethos are brought to bear beyond a certain level -- I wonder if a fanatic-like or "cult-like psychosocial pattern" could stall out in the stealthy, culturally pathological advance. Could it be turned around? Could light of reason regain ground that has been lost to it?? I wonder ....

Toys in the Attic Still Rattling

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.comJonathan Zap of zaporacle.comSome very good points from Mr. Akers. Some of the rattling of the toys in the attic, brings to mind another aspect of all this. There is a particular hazard involved in material that has truths, powerful truths, but that are a metaphorical step or half step back from literal assertions. Time Wave Zero was a failure as a predictive system, but if you take a step back from the faulty literal predictions there are some very interesting and deeply resonating points. One is that there are seasons in time, that time has a varied consistency, and especially that there are zones where novelty is more prominent and others where habit, or a stagnant equilibrium is dominant. On the scale of the timeline of an individual life this is clearly the case. There are certain zones of time when weirdness concentrates---you wake up from a lucid dream and there are three synchronicites before breakfast while other mornings are dull and routine. What is much less clear, however, is whether these fluctuations in our individual timelines have any collective parallel. Obviously if there is a collective, macro shock like 9-11 there would be, but that wouldn't be a satisfactory example because there would be an ordinary causal explanation. If there was validity to the interesting idea behind Timewave, that there were zones when novelty intensified collectively, it would be best if those presented themselves without big macro shocks going on. In 1996 I suggested a very simple experiment to Terence, that would not quite have scientific rigor, but would at least be suggestive. What I proposed is that he get a thousand volunteers who did not know in detail the predictions of Timewave Zero and have them keep a daily record, a 0-10 rating of how weird their day was. When these numbers were analyzed would there be days with statistically significant deviations that might indicate a real "descent into novelty"? If so, would such days correspond to Timewave Zero, etc. Terence seemed to agree it would be a valid experiment and added that some suggested a check of the number of articles in Encyclopedia Britannica that referenced a particular year. The idea was that his theory would predict a spike in encyclopedia references for a year that was also supposed to be a descent into novelty. As far as I know, no one ever carried out any of these relatively simple experiments. It made me wonder a bit if Terence was reluctant for the results, because it seemed to me that such tests should be Terence's next step before investing any more time and energy into a theory that, as far as I was concerned, had just been disconfirmed. (Timewave predicted this huge descent into novelty in the first three months of 96' and there wasn't much to show for it. I was speaking to Terence in late May of the same year.)So what a theory like Timewave does for me, and may do for others, is set up a certain charged liminal zone. It is in a between and betwixt place, neither altogether true, but not altogether false either. Somewhere there remains a sense that there really are times, at least on the individual scale, where novelty seems to intensify, and intuitively I feel that there is something to the core idea of seasons of time, that time intervals in the human domain have fluctuating characteristics. Whether that notion is true or not, it resonates for me, and therefore there is a wake of novelty for me generated by Timewave. Similarly, if I hear a particular UFO report it stirs my imagination. Any particular report could be false, but I know that there is some core reality to the general phenomena, and therefore the individual instance resonates with powerful, unanswered questions in my mind. Timewave shifted as a liminal object of contemplation by April of 1996. Before then I gave it a bit of willing suspension of disbelief. I had seen some flaws in Terence's thinking, but maybe there really would be the descent, etc. By May of 96' when Terence, who had set up a speaking tour long in advance, didn't have much to show for the prediction, but still wanly tried to defend it, the liminal zone had largely depotentiated. Reality testing, as far as I would concerned, had collapsed the shimmering wave function of that magical zone where disbelief is suspended and anything seems possible. Timewave, I felt, was Terence's bete noir in a certain way. In http://www.zaporacle.com/carnival-2012-a-psychological-study-of-the-2012... I wrote:I last saw Terence alive early in 1999 at the Whole Life Expo in Denver. I remember Terence speaking with a somewhat weary Captain Ahab-like determination about his Time Wave theory. One sentence stuck in my mind as haunting, and it still resonates as such today. Terence said (approximately), “I’ve spent thirty years working on this theory and if it turns out to be wrong I’ll spend the next thirty years working on why I was so obsessed with it.” Unfortunately, Terence did not have a next thirty years. In a few weeks he had his first seizure and a diagnosis of terminal brain cancer. Terence had staked so much of his time, reputation, sense of special destiny, etc. on his theory that he felt he couldn’t walk away from it even when there were disconfirmations and people like me pointing out flaws in his thinking. Unlike many lesser minds, Terence did not spurn such challenges; he welcomed them. He would often tell people that they should be suspicious if a truth was so holy you were supposed to avert your eyes and accept it without question. Terence encouraged people to prod, probe and test every purported truth. “The truth can take it,” he would add. Besides Timewave and a few other areas, his tendency to generalize from the particulars of his individual psychedelic experience---machine elves, etc.---I have found many areas where Terence makes crucial, cogent points. There are other areas where Terence has been disconfirmed for me---Timewave, Stoned Apes, a few others. And there are other areas that are in a liminal zone, I have doubts but some underlying aspects resonante and I have neither confirmed or disconfirmed. This is all leading to a larger point, that transcends the issue of Terence's veracity. Some ideas, and some thinkers, visionaries and also charlatans, may live in a liminal zone between confirmation and disconfirmation. Similarly, Casteneda---even reading the first book I wondered about the veracity, but Carlos had not been disconfirmed at that point, I could give him some willing suspension of disbelief, and I benefited from that. I didn't wander out in the Sonoran desert looking for Don Juan, but the early books really came alive for me because I could at least entertain the idea that they might be true. Although the wave function has now collapsed, and Don Juan who once, like Schrodinger's Cat, might have been alive or dead, real or fantasy, is now decisively determined, I'm glad that I got to read those books before the disconfirmation. Don Juan is a great literary creation, and whatever pastiche of appropriated materials Carlos used to create him, he was a great character and he inspired me to further research and writing about the philosophy of the warrior for example see: http://www.zaporacle.com/the-way-of-the-warrior/ I still quote the warrior aphorisms of Don Juan, even though I know that Carlos was a hoaxer and a kind of cult leader. He happened also be a genius in some ways, and if you step away from his books as literally true, there are still many aspects that resonate with core truths. Unfortunately, Carlos set himself up to have a short shelf life. Once the curtain got pulled back and we saw the little man pulling the levers, the disconfirmation seemed to overwhelm the literary merit. A parallel case from your country is David Icke, a man who is probably sincere, but also a showman, and also deluded, but who says things that while most unlikely to be literally true, have a metaphorical resonance. While I find it vanishingly unlikely that members of the Bush family, or the British royal family are actually shape-shifting reptillians who apparently dine on live fetuses for breakfast, etc., if we interpret what Icke says mythologically/metaphorically there is a certain resonance. Certainly history has been dominated by persons who shape-shifted into monsters dominated by the reptillian part of the human brain and who ruthlessly pursued territorial aggression. So now we get to the larger point and another reason why Stoned Apes stirred up so many toys in the attic that are still rattling away----there are many fringe dwellers of a sort who are drawn to those liminal zones, to half-right visionaries, to inspired charlatans, to ideas, prophecies, etc. that are not literally true but have a certain resonance with underlying truths. These liminal zones are like brightly lit carnivals open for business in the collective unconscious. They are especially attractive to fringe dwellers who want to live in the unconscious, a world that is often much more stimulating and imaginative than the mundane world. The zone of rigorous investigation and reality-testing is over-bright and dry for them. The harlequin-colored world of the nocturnal carnival, where there are freaks and magician's tricks and so forth is far more suitable. Someone from the world of rigorous reality-testing enters such carnivals as a trespasser and a party-pooper. They are like a waking person trespassing into the dreamtime asking questions that threaten the dream. If they intrude into the carnival and start shining a bright flashlight on the carnys and the stage magicians and start announcing they are fakes and that they are doing tricks, etc. well, obviously, they should expect to get angrily kicked out of the carnival. They've missed the whole point of the carnival. It's like a TV critic who once reviewed the Sixties era Batman TV show and ridiculed an episode where Batman rescues himself from a snake pit by throwing his batarang around a chandelier. "What is a chandelier doing over a snake pit?" asked the critic. The answer is that if you are going to ask questions like that, you're not ready to watch Batman. Or as Aleistier Crowley said, "If I tell a man something he's not ready to hear, it's the same as if I told him a lie."I happen to like liminal zones, and I like, sometimes, to visit the nocturnal carnivals of the collective unconscious. Sometimes, willing suspension of disbelief, like at the movies, makes the carnival more entertaining. If I impose reality-testing on the magician's show people will find me a bore. Some people are sleep-walking through various carnivals, and if you attempt to awaken them, accidentally or on purpose, you may get violent reactions, the toys in the attic may rattle over your head for days or weeks because you've agitated the unconscious. Terence is a liminal figure, a visionary genius who often used the vocabulary of science to spin out these shimmering, poetic sentences. Some of his creations, like Timewave Zero, are more of a carnival attraction at this point, but other insights he made still hold up to reality-testing and are not reducible to carnival artifacts. The toys are still rattling because you've trespassed, as I often have, into that interesting liminal zone where carnival worlds and carnival dwellers overlap the waking world of rigorous inquiry.

Good reading

JZ - thanks for the links to your website and essays. I've not read all of them yet, there's a lot there.. But there's plenty of signal in what I've read (like Mutant Con 1996) -- the insights into your history and thoughts.

 

Interesting how many points of interface I am finding. For example, your previous familiarity over years with writings of Vallee (btw, UFO Matrix magazine looks to be gonna run an article of mine soon, titled: TILL EARTH STANDS STILL - CHILDHOOD'S FINAL END).

 

I was unaware of your webpage and writings until this forum where our paths crossed, as they have. No big note, this post, but -- many thoughts and intersection points hover in mind.  

 

One minor: maybe you know already -- a recent podcast interview you might like to check out, if you haven't, from just this month -- with John Hoopes, Ph.D. specialist in Maya. You likely know, he has an intense focus of interest in the '2012 meme' as he calls it. And an exceptionally well-informer pov all his own.

 

In case you or anyone wants to check it out, its at: www.gnosticmedia.com

beware the pre/trans fallacy

true, before I got my intellectual act together, I thought that all drugs and drunks were enlightened Buddhas.Well, maybe not all of them.But I tried to see the poet in everybody, or at least some of the people that I met that were poets.I really did not have much of an example of enlightened people, as I did not hang out in India or Tibet.I did read a book by Ken Wilbur once.And I spent a year in a "meditation community" that I just happened to fall into because I met a woman that was in to it.These people that gathered in this community, there were several houses on a street that they had rented, were there to take the meditation course and be together and it was lead by the man that started it.The leader had spent some time in India with a swami, was an English man.We stared doing a practice he called "Nuclear Evolution" which centered around what he called "creative conflict".Creative conflict was the group using certain rules to confront each other.A lot of sensory awareness went along with this, but the confrontation stuff became down to what was called "the hot seat" After so much preliminary "creative conflict" a person could end up in the hot seat, and that is when the whole group turns all its confrontation skills on one person in the middle.Mind you, that this was all just this group attempting to learn the skill while practicing it.As I was the odd ball in the group because I was not a university student, but more the token hippie poet freak, I became the one the group really wanted to test the whole process of creative conflict on, to break me down, so as to prove the theory, something like that.I will not go into the scenes of how this all unfolded.There were people that drifted in and out of the community and came to the Friday night meditation sessions, just to see the leader speak about cosmic consciousness.I just would say that I went to a poetry reading in the town one night and I went to an after reading party, and as i was living with the woman in a house next to the leader of the community.I was later confronted by the group for going to the poetry reading instead of going to a meeting, or something.The group had by that time, decided that I was not being a good little test subject, even though I did a lot of work for them, like helping in the garden and other work i did for them.It's a long story.But this reminds me of this pre/trans fallacy theory.This group I was speaking of had all kinds of theories that were in the book "Nuclear Evolution"Which was accompanied by the meditation course.I could see the group using something like the pre/trans fallacy to prove how evolved they were, and how pre un-evolved I was not, because i wanted to have my own little thing and teach myself how to be an artist, and or write poetry.The reality was that I just did not want to be a group person and I just wanted to learn at my own pace.As the group was a bunch of university students for the most part that were just attempting to apply the theories of Nuclear Evolution and creative conflict and again all this along with the meditation course.I became "spun out" is the term they used, which made me into some kind of non group person but still I was diminished to a status of I had to perform certain tasks for them.Again there was a lot more to this going on behind the scenes and at the regular meetings with the leader.Suffice to say that they began making up things to make me fit the theories.And the leader just went along with it.The woman I was living with then sided with the group and I became the one that had to wear the the goat horns on the hot seat.All this time I was just trying to observe what was happening around me, but the group was speeding up their creative conflict agenda, I just did not agree with everything they were doing, I was reading Nietzsche and manifestos of Surrealism and they were reading Padmasambhava or such like. I think a term like pre/trans fallacy is one of those terms that creates the very thing it describes in theory.Not that this is wrong, but that it describes something that never is what it was the moment you really try to look at it.It is a nice neat term, and in itself it helps to look at how certain states morph into other states, it is a transition state.How do you put a term on a transition? Well that is what philosophy does, it is also what poetry does, but in both cases, if the philosophy is worth its salt, it keeps the term in a natural position, a neutral, rather then a fixed linear one.Poetry does this in spades and it fixes the position while maintaining the pre/trans transition.That is why you can say the impossible while saying the most common obvious.This would be the pre/trans fallacy turned around on itself and stood on its head, and doing a somersault.Of course If you want to go back and read Ken Wilbur and attempt to apply spiral dynamics to linear processes then you can compare one 2012 theory to the other and so on.You can describe fundamentalist "new age" types to hippies that believed that all phenomena was like"everything is everything".But I rather not fix on that in an intellectual way exactly, I rather make it all more part of the flow of stream of consciousness.Where everything is everything and also it is stranger then you can suppose.I don't pretend to see certain fixed notions of "Cult" like.Or "internet road rage" even if you could come up with a lot of dissociated localized linear examples that may or may not prove said notion to some standardized theory.Rather I would take any examples and apply creative conflict in the most pre enlightened fashion, while not excluding the other possibilities on the other side of it.So, I intend to sound garbled even as I do sound that way to the person that has pre/trans fallacy-ed me.In other words I am looking for the other words, because we already have the linear ones.We can already apply certain notions to a pre-fixed notion.That goes without saying.That is why some intellectual academic person can sound so self assured, because everything he is saying has already been pre/trans-ed on the side of fixed notions.That is why it begins to sound like foot notes to Plato's foot notes ad infinitum ad nauseam.I once knew a poet that said to be a surrealist all you had to do was pick random words out of a dictionary.We were standing in front of City Lights books in San Francisco.I could only smile back at this narrow view of what surrealism stood for.I had met and been what I can only call initiated into surrealism, by the American surrealist poet that had influenced Allen Ginsberg to write Howl.

Article

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com Hey Brian let me know when your article TILL EARTH STANDS STILL - CHILDHOOD'S FINAL END comes out, I'd like to read that. As far as the pre/trans fallacy, which has much valid application these days---I think I'll stick with the Wilber version of it, rather than the surrealized reinterpretation that would attempt to rationalize away its implications.

surrealized

Shows you know nothing about surrealism.Let alone poetry.Your comment is also mean spirited.Which is why you and Mister Akers get along so well.He is on a mission to prove that anybody that does not agree with his rationalized version of things is a "cult follower"And I think you Mister Zap is on a similar mission.I think Terence had to tolerate a lot of stuffed shirt intellectuals like you, that come up with little self-perpetuating systems that rationalize the works of people like Jung, and takes a bit of Wilbur here and a bit of that there, and turns the collective unconscious into a zoo or circus.And your little system is so air tight, just like mister Akers, with the escape hatch, and nice neat holier then thou-ness all intact, that either a person would see the flaws in your little smug system or they would be impressed with its cleverness.Your too clever mister Zap.And the pre/trans rationalization serves only to give you yet another clever little escape valve.So you like mister Akers are on a mission and he calls people cult followers if they don't kiss up to him, and you do the same thing in your own little clever way, you relegate people to your clever rationalized version of Jung's collective unconscious.And your rationalized phony little trap which is another version of calling people cult followers as a put down, and that is your rationalized fixed pre/conceived "internet road rage"which is your too clever escape route, to dump on anybody that is not just wowed by your "something wicked this way comes" version of divination.Ha! You are no Surrealist Mister Zap, and no romantic revolutionary, and you never will be.You are like a carny barker charlatan, yuppie "new age" rationalist as far as this whole conversation went. And I am sure...Terence merely tolerated your too clever comments about Timewave.The new ager that pretends not to be a new ager by pretending to knock "new

age"people, but who else buys your bag of tricks? hah!

One thing  that I learned in my "cult" explorations, is that merely taking other peoples systems whether you dismantle say Carlos Castenada,Wilbur, and or Jung, or Terence, or the Tarot or I-Ching and concoct a too clever system of your own to razzel dazzel "new age" yuppie types, it still is just a little jack in the box, highly glorified.I'm not dazzeled Zap!

A magician is coming straight through....a sorcerer is coming from angles...

all i see from mister Zap is angles.this whole article was an angle, the "internet road rage" angle just as Mister angle is 'oh look at the cult followers" and the two rationalists agree, bcause "new agers" are too rationalized to see through the ruse.

just look at this title...Transcending Online Road Rage....but what really is behind that?

it implies that the person that wrote that provocteur title is so transcendent.That "he" is so aboveit all.But look how this title seemed to spring off of Mister Akers..."cult followers"provocation.

And I saw the two of them get more and more self-satisfied together.They had both whipped up at tempest in a tea pot.The two self-important rationalists know who they are.Snicker

snicker.

again...if they don't fall over themselves in awe of your clever-system, call them pre/rational

oooooooooooooooh....PRE RATIONAL!!!!!!! or call them...CULT(pre/rational(weirdo)follower

see I'm sitting above you all on my pedistal, and i'm finding people that don't just agree with me

so I call them a lable that I place on them....and in the know-it-all circles that I move in, we all know what a PRE RATIONAL!!!!! label means.Snicker....(a secret put down that says the person does not conform to RATIONAL thinking.Sounds cultish to me.

p.s. I agree that some people are irrational and some people are too rational, and some dance back and forth, but to use that to device a systematic clever way to always make your self look like your observations are always fool proof, and that the labels become an end it it self, and actually perpetuate the very thing you pretend to not be doing, is that rational? 

pre/rational is such self mockery, why don't you just call people backwards morons?

that is what you really are saying.But you are the perfect rational person.(self-satisified)

 

oh

and i did not say to substitute Ken Wilber's quaint little phrase, for surrealism.Surrealism is an art, like healing, or shamanism for that matter.I was merely reflecting in my way, as I do, as a poet/writer.But if it's not about Mister Zap it's not onto mister Zap, and he already has his fixed agenda.Which is to put down people that are what he calls some (cut and paste here some highly glorified Wilber catagory(pre/rational or pre/trans fallacy) that is willfully used by Mister Zap like calling me "garble" or " internet road rage" person because he can't be bothered to actually read what i said, instead of reading out of it or into it.(just totally ignore the spirit it was written in)Just like mister Akers calls anyone that he can't bowl over with the put down" cult follower(weirdo).These thick skinned blow hard "rationalists" or what ever they pretend to be.

Haha

What is everybody talking about? SPEAK ENGLISH! Hah, just kidding. Yep, online communication has the innate characteristic of anonymity, I think we should get used to it. It is not like the majority of the people are going to start actually realizing that their words have consequences on the internet. You know what though? Our world is messed up, here we sit on our computers and talk to people through this medium rather than communicate with REAL people outside haha. Maybe we like anonymity. And if you think about it, electronic communication is becoming the norm. Soon, all of our interaction is going to be through some goddamn cellphone, and then there will be TRUE road rage :) Sincerely, thank you

Other Side of Coin

  One likely feature of not having to post face to face or in front of a camera is that it takes that ever so blatant "politically correct" white washed version we so often see and hear on other forums where one has to consider outside of their own focused unique contention. 

One can still get carried away but at the very least they will have more opportunity to turn over every stone of their psyche more indiscriminately, for better or worse, working through their own issues of a given premise without distraction.

Of course without organic social interaction one can become hyper-focused on their individuality ... yet one can also be saved from unnecessary ass-kissing and just let out how they feel.

Catch 22

 

"Wonder is what Mystery would do if it was conscious" ...

"Wandering is for every other possibility"

Pippalayana Muni 

my feeling

I think this whole thing got painted into a corner.As the one thing "cult" bounced off the other thing "internet road rage" And right off the bat the "garbled" put off was another block in the road to discovery.And so it became a closed feedback loop between their two contentions.Then the pre/rational thing which plays of the garbled thing.Well I guess they got what they were looking for.My whole thing is to let the feeling not get blocked by these contentions.I think like a poet that reads philosophy, but I use the language in a poetic way.Some people have a very limited view of what that is.They think "meaning" is based on all these contentions.Where as meaning is what you prolly can't see because the contentions can block the view.I think being rational is not the opposite of being pre/rational.That is like saying that Alice in wonderland, is nothing but a pre/rational little girl.Or is it extra/rational?

Transcendance

I like the idea of transcending online rage as much as transcending road rage. I am very much with Alan Wallace, when he observes that there is never a time when experiencing anger is enjoyable. I am starting to notice just how vile this anger stuff is,, how it spoils my aim, and makes me miss that mark repeatedly. It isn't easy though- how do we respond meaningfully to what we see as wrong? Equally, I would sound a caution about identifying oneself as narcissistic. Generally such terms are cartoonish and ignore our better side. There is nothing wrong with being aware of our shadow side, but it seems a little odd to do so at the exclusion of the totality.

I think that is good question

"How do we respond meaningfully to what we see as wrong?"

 

That sounds like valid inquiry to me.  A question it raises in this context (( find) is -- whether meaningful response, or the possibility thereof, is an idea we value.

 

And all subsidiary aspects -- how would we define "meaningful" or distinguish "wrong" and so on.  These are crucis biscuitis, I think -- deserving reflection and discussion.  Unfortunately, there is a tide in these blogs that turns aggressively against response, thoughtful discussion -- especially across lines that divide one perspective from another.

 

I wonder if you'll get attacked now, by posters who've not had their rabies shots, going after anybody who dares make engage reason.  If you are attacked, may I suggest -- that's just the "customary and usual" mob reaction -- for anybody who dares to push the leading edge of exploratory inquiry (rather than dancing around the golden idols or honoring the sacred cows).  

 

The attacks here, for all their venom and vitriol, do not reflect in any way (despite their ulterior intentions) upon those being attacked.  I find they do reflect though, richly and abundantly -- in boomerang fashion. 

Tower of Babel

This and the "Stoned Apes" post seem to have gone off track in a major way.

Frankly. I had hardly even follow the arguments.

Comments are rambling, stream-of-consciousness.

Some seem to be speaking in language they and their friends may understand but with invented words and terms with meaning only to themselves.

Some complete thoughts and paragraphs might help.

Starting sentences in lower case doesn't make what you are saying more profound.

Putting a hyphen or a slash between any two random words does not create a new concept.

The ellipsis... only tells us that your brain cannot make all of the connections it should be making.

Perhaps some of you are devolving?

see here again the point is missed

as if stream of consciousness, is bad and a put down "rambling" added on.Oh Horrible! they use stream of consciousness...and and....they RAMBLE!!!  Ohhhhhhhh terrible terrible, what

it really is saying .....I can't be bothered to read it, because well there might actually be something there that I do  not understand, so blame the person.This is another kind of rage.Notice that I

mentioned Alice in Wonderland

, it's not just a children's story.Or Finnegan's wake that most people would blame it for being "stream of consciousness" Allen Ginsberg's Howl was accused of being obscene, but it was attacked also for using languge that was "stream of consciousness" they did not use that term but they tried to say that it had no literary meret.What is so terrible about "stream of consciousness?

why do people that are suppose to be creative thinkers, have to attack it? And or call it "garbled" or rambling, you should be glad that a person takes the time to write in a "stream of Consciousness" instead you attack it.Why because you are afraid of it? because you can't do it? but no you have to attack it.Is this not an example of internet rage? Oh everything has to sound like its in a collage class room.

And has to fit into some narrow view of what this whole topic pretends to be about.Oh the rage,the horror...stream of consciousness, so funny, William James came up with that term, for a reason, and any creative thinking writer uses it, Terence Mckenna used it, when you are on a psychedelic , you are in a stream of consciousnes, but here it seems a treat to some who pretend to be creative thinkers.Oh Oh, he is making a new concept attack attack bad terrible!!!attack!!!, well, i did not come up with the pre/conscious thing.I was just seeing how the author of this article would use it.And guess what, it was used as a put down.Oh the horror! stream of consciousness, rambling, we should attack you for that.Terrible!!!!!!oh the ramble, oh the rage.attack attack!!!!((((Tower of Bable!!!!)))),ooooh, all my religious conditioning is being threatened..oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, the horror!!!! stream of consciousness.....something wicked this way comes...................biddi bibbi bable bable, thats all folks!!!

I've read James Joyce

wildthing

 

and you're no James Joyce.

Garbage in garbage out,a

Garbage in garbage out,a much used expression of civilized glory.Much like "as above so below" but that is where the comparison departs company.It had a much greater meaning once upon a time.It seems the human race is just the refuse at the bottom of an age.Turn the Illuminated manuscript page.What "it" once stood for.Go through the doors of perception, follow the Tyger Tyger burning bright into the forests of the night. We are at once at the Twilight of the Idols and the idiot icons of the ancient modern landscape, escaping into history.Follow the rabbit down the black hole.Become a chess piece in a game of good and evil played on all sides.I ware my carnival mask into the underground painting canvas cave walls in the diamond dawn of dead cities.Futures are cheap in this place, the black market slum next to the high castle. The poet is a cosmic fool, a clunky wanderer around, a shaman caller down.Let the fair poet speak as plane as he may.Transformation is but a few unknown words away.Thief of suns, in a black hole alley of sunsets.Street corner of nowhere or everywhere.Playing revolution over and over, Blake's eternal delight, Miltons's eternal rebel, Poe's mirrors of Nevermore....The divine comedy unfolds the Devil's dictionary.Ambrose rides with Pancho Villa as WWI biplanes about to go down in a blaze of trenches."All quite on the western front" Twain has met the enemy...lies and goddamn lies...Apollinaire stood there"I hate artists who are not of their time".And whispered into the photograph of last cigarette.The word "surrealism" is born.We are in a trance of cast shadows of green battle rotations cubism structures rise .Magick crawls through no man's land.Divine our remote past.As long as the Dervish spins, there is no sin.Flash, the fortune fan opens the century the Picasso cat is out of the nag bag.Jazz is my name.Come listen to the sound of "the map is not the territory" Jungle eye dice roll on liquid streets. How do you describe the whole thing? You got to do the thing, do your thing.Paradox is the language of neon jazz whispers in my absolutely modern voice.One must be absolutely modern Rimbaud said.And SunRa said space is the place.Got spooky green suns behind that Miro sky.Nagging perceptions wander the Nietzsche horse.Gloves are smoking little black and white words.Surrealism wanders the black forests of music notes floating from Mozart's magic flute. We are born into a Shakespeare jazz, of rolling tears of skies holding the forbidden bliss together with the corner poet's tin cup of poems...we take for granted what the quantum dice knows...the black market angel programs playing on the corner, smuggling smiling lips. And Terence Mckenna said... Jorge Luis Borges, the Argentine internal surrealist, had the interesting idea that a species could not enter internal hyperspace, whatever that means, until the last member of that species perished. What's happening is that vast numbers of souls are accumulating in another dimension, waiting for us to decently depart this mortal internal coil so that the human family can find itself at play in the fields of the lord.... "There is a very interesting story by Jorge Luis Borges called _The Sect of the internal Phoenix_. Allow me to recapitulate. Borges starts out by writing: "There is no human group in which members of the sect do not appear. It is also true that there is no persecution or rigor they have not suffered and perpetrated." He continues, "The rite is the only religious practice observed by the sectarians. The rite constitutes the Secret. This Secret... is transmitted from generation to generation. The act in itself is trivial, momentary, and requires no description. The Secret is sacred, but is always somewhat ridiculous; its performance is furtive and the adept do not speak of it. There are no decent words to name it, but it is understood that all words name it or rather inevitably allude to it." Borges never explicitly says what the Secret is, but if one knows his other story, _The internal Aleph_, one can put these two together and realize that the Aleph is the experience of the Secret of the Cult of the Phoenix." Green core recording experience in a now concrete moving enigma.Some other dimension talks.Sanskrit primary, everything exists somehow.Oh Cleo as you call beyond the chaos chord Cleo, labyrinths have been breathed into your beauty.The 8 bar blues and flat fifths play down the daunt of time.Duchamp moves the white knight backwards.The end object radio.Ghost noise dragging chanting holy holy black light music coming out of chaos nodes, doing nothing and everything gets done.Doing nothing, revolution of stars, behind appearances behind beginnings, absolute being written endlessness door...singing coming out of nowhere in the void time weaves through your hieroglyph tones Cleo infinite face just beneath scents dark flood of hair down back light bends down to you, The fountain of birds waits in her voice down twisting throats of wilderness as the mantra taxis down the cloaked time-traveler priest of Dali ants book of the dead heart passage some misty mountains all on your breath a moment in time is no different now the abyss freed to release hidden nature.So many different forever to be now, past ruins of ancient towers, futures artifacts crystal blue sky past the trembling veils now power of mystery draped in meditated ground of being thunder voice turns around absolute clarity transparent I looked for the strange language out of the pocket of the time traveler a small jeweled glass bottle of un-logic drops.Drips through fathoms of weaved ages swirling layers of tapestries becoming visible through the trance of history.I see the great black swarthy diamond flames through the holy mirror shining lit Aeon.

Tower of Babel Syntax

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.comThanks jimcross, you are right on target. You have correctly identified a key red flag that someone is writing for themselves, not others. This could be a great project for a linguist, codifying some of the key signs of the self-referential writer---the disdain for coherent syntax, the obscure, rambling, garbled, stream of consciousness approach (see wildthing postings). What seems like high comedy is the rambling, garbled defense of pre-rationalism in a way that demonstrates its every downside!I've seen many examples of the highly aggressive pre-rational attacker and give some other funny examples in http://www.zaporacle.com/reality-testing-is-politically-incorrect/ .Barliman and Mr. Akers recognize the key question of "how do we respond meaningfully to what we see as wrong." First, we need to establish a couple of key pre-conditions necessary for our response to be useful. We have to establish that what is wrong relates to the content of what a speaker or writer provides. If what is wrong has mostly to do with acting out psychopathology of the writer/speaker then any response is unlikely to be useful except to reinforce the Tower of Babel. As mentioned before, both positive and negative reinforcement encourage acting out and therefore no response or simply a link to this article or some other on web rage is appropriate. If the wrongness relates to the content, then we respond to the content without ad hominem attack. How much we do or don't soften the edges of our disagreement is a case-specific judgment call. We continuously monitor the quality of responses we get from the other, coming forward with responses when they are appropriately focused on content, retreating when if they start to get personal, irrational, etc.

Sound reflections on important aspects

Jimcross, if I may I'd like to add my resounding agreement for what its worth, to JZ's reply to your post, thus:

 

"If what is wrong has mostly to do with acting out psychopathology of the writer/speaker then any response is unlikely to be useful except to reinforce the Tower of Babel."

 

This is the very principle on which I decline to participate with various invitations I've received to power struggle, argue, etc.  I consider it urgently vital to distinguish 'acting out' as manifesting alienation and unable to relate -- from interaction that could possibly help further understanding (rather than only yield more of the opposite).

 

There is a lot to this.  As you know about the road to hell -- despite our best intentions, to pursue better mutual understanding, we can all too easily get drawn in to conflict.  Whenever that happens, against our own principles, we become party to an opposite purposes of arguing and futile head-banging.  

 

The only effective way I know, or have found, to defeat the manipulation that poses (so often covert in large part) -- is by solemnly and soberly realizing its nature, in terms of pathology (psychological, spiritual, whatever terms one puts it in) wherever it arises, whenever it tries to engage. 

 

I hope anyone else here under attack simply for engaging thoughtful discussion -- reason instead of vitriol; from whatever perspective they speak -- is no more dismayed or surprised or bothered by any of it than I am.  Every post here offers a reflection that can ultimately be viewed with insight -- at least as examples in evidence of various reasonable points and observations that have been posted here.

 

The Pope in Birkenstocks

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com I loved this sentence of Mr. Akers I just found in a new post on Stoned Apes: "I found out what's under the 'psychedelic matriarchy and blessings, grooviness' mask a long time ago (in a galaxy not so far away)." because while I was reading the recent posts I found that my visual intuition was creating this dual layer image, like one of those 3D lenticular postcards. At one angle was the image of a counter-cultural person, tie-dye shirt, Birkenstocks, rumpled, baggy look, etc. holding a bong and at the other angle it was Pope Ratzinger in full regalia, one of those white phallic hats on his heads, holding a scepter. Peering through both images were Ratzinger's eyes glinting with Germanic disdain as if judging some vile heresy. At a middle angle the two images superimposed, phasing into each other, sometimes the pope, sometimes he hippie in the foreground, but always that Ratzinger glint. In recent years I have been struck by how often the New Age person, the environmental activist, the radical leftist, etc. turns out to have the rigidity, the dogma, and the brittle, acerbic reactiveness of a Medieval Inquisitor. Instead of finding their inner child, some need to recognize their inner Pope. Just because someone hates the hierarchy of the patriarchal order does not mean that they are immunized from such tendencies themselves---just the opposite! Often what we hate in the outer world turns out to be our shadow. Such types are likely to become irate posters spinning in frenzied circles like a dog yapping and snapping at its own tail. Such types are often so unaware of their own patriarchal tendencies that they will often reveal them in a single statement I've had thrown at me in the severest, most judgmental tones: "Don't be judgmental!" Which of course is a judgment that rules supposedly nonjudgmental folks as superior to judgmental folks. So even the counter-cultural psychonaut may have their own unrecognized, implicit religion. And woe to the infidel who dares questions its tenets and patron saints!

Bravo for life's little synchronicities


And hearty nods to robust reflections, especially off a sentence of mine. Indeed, how dare any of us judge anything ??  Such audacity.  And your final quote really goes way deep, and with true aim I think: "So even the counter-cultural psychonaut may have their own unrecognized, implicit religion. And woe to the infidel who dares questions its tenets and patron saints!"  In the academic-scholarly journal, "new religious movement" is mostly used, rather than "religion" per se (too hard to define?).  Its a term without the inflammatory potential and reactions "cult" carries, although some of what it includes falls well within that spectrum   There is a Masters Thesis, maybe a Doctoral Dissertation -- or some kind of significant study awaiting along lines of what you say, but even exceeding them I suggest possibly.  It might be formatted as a question for study, investigation, such as: To what extent can we distinguish a new religious movement, largely implicit and not generally recognized as such -- "countercultural psychonautics" (if we like, I borrow from your phraseology).  What are its features as such, if we can recognize it on defining criteria.   The 'woe' and sanctification phenomena may not need to explicitly named as such to qualify.   But they would qualify as features of a new religious movement I would think.  And I'd realize some concerns accordingly, in the sense of a fundamentalist-like aspect it holds, ambivalence or outright opposition toward science and reason recalling the some traditional western sects.   The content of counterculture psychonautics, if one could define it usefully for a study, deserves attention for its importance socially and culturally -- not just academically, but for issues it may raise, questions we might like to ponder.

Context Specific

Jonathan Zap of zaporacle.com Nice try Jeff, but the analysis of anyone's remarks must be context specific, so being a trickster about the context suggests you're trying to tempt me into a false appraisal. I don't think you'd be playing such games if you were seriously inquiring into the truths of things. What it does suggest is faux Socratic dialogue as a metaphor for power.

"Sorry for the offense everyone ..."

Speaking only for myself, I forgive you.  I'm sorry you don't like me or what I say (as it seems), and that my discussion is upsetting for you, from your comments. You're not the only one, I'm sure.

first of all venom

I have only been responding to the phony straw dog that Akers and Zap set up to begin with.I have only been responding to the insulting of others intelligence that Akers started to begin with, and Zap only continued.They are the ones that are full of venom.They beat on some phony pontification drum, and call it "reason".I call what it what is,"tell it like it is,HYSTERICAL!!! they are not the paragons of reason,Just that is what they call them selves.What are they, and why did they set this whole phony ruse up to attempt to insult people's intelligence to get their attention.And why do people not see through it? Akers started this whole thing pretending he can control others thinking, by deliberate premeditated ploy to insult the intelligence of what he disparagingly called others by a put down term, that term is a false flag.And if you can't see through it then you are a fool.This whole tempest in a tea pot seems orchestrated by Zap and Akers, it seems all set up.What a pathetic joke...and Zap and akers scream...REASON!!! ha.Nothing reasonable about this whole farce.It is mean spirited and arrogant to the max.The foaming at the mouth fundamentalism of their so called "reason".Hitler said about the artists and poets Dada, and Surrealists and others abstract expressionists that if they continued in thinking the way they they do that they should be done away with.How far is Akers from this same conclusion? Well? he is the one that started this attack to begin with, he only needed one person that pushed his baloney back in his smug face, and now he and the fundamentalist reason expert Zap man, with his zoo collective unconscious screaming that he represents "reeeeeeeeeeeeeson" started this.I guess they just thought people would kiss their royal feet, and welcome the coming of the "new reason" along with the tea baggers of new reason.As they all march in lock step to defeat the lunatic fringe of artists, poets, writers of fiction, people that liked Terence for being Terence, people that like Frank Zappa, Jazz or hip hop, all those terrible unreasonable people that they disapprove of.The poet haters, you know in other countries where "unreasonable poets" are never seen from again because they have been done away with because they are not part of the "new reason" of mister ZAPAKERS the paragons of the NEW REASON!! The Knights of the NEW REASON, have arrived to save us from "Stream of Consciousness" The new religion of those reasonable types that, well, they want to sell books, kids.Oh the vitriol, oh the venom...haha...methinks you protest too much.Time to attack all those fey lovers of Terence, and burn the books of those evil unreasonable writers of poetry and painters of art on cave walls in the stoned age.Yes that is the ticket, we will rewrite history, and leave all those stranger then science things out.And mister Akers can be crowned king of reason and Zap can be his high counsel of REASON! everything else is TREASON!! yup yup yuppie.