Transcending Online Road Rage

Treat a man as he appears to be, and you make him worse. But treat a man as if he were what he potentially could be, and you make him what he should be. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Perusing the comments sections of two excellent articles I read recently on Reality Sandwich and Evolver, I was struck by the abusive tone of many commentators. This had much in common with the tone I have encountered in other online forums. I refer to it as "road rage" because I think there are some parallels to vehicular aggression, which also occurs in a dynamic, anonymous medium. I grew up with and strongly believe in the value of Socratic dialogue, including sharp and forceful Socratic dialogue. But the tone of many online forums does not strike me as the sharp edge of minds exploring their differences as cognitive swordplay. There may sometimes be an element of that, but mostly the dominant flavor is a neurotic venom, a venom that I find myself especially allergic to because I find some of it within as well as without. I have had to hold myself back from online road rage, and in exploring its origins I will look within, as well as without, to understand what's going on and how we might transcend some of this venom.
Online road rage is relatively new, but only because online is relatively new. In earlier centuries and millennia, political disputes, disputes in the arts and sciences, in philosophy, history, theology, etc. often dripped with vintage venoms every bit as potent as any brewed up today. Communication technology changes faster and more decisively than the human psyche, so we should expect many of the deeper psychological causes of venomous dispute, past and present, to parallel these changes. I'll focus on the present, however, and take a more personal view here. This is meant to be a personal comment on online comments and not a research project on disputatiousness.
We could all find examples, some funny, some grotesquely over-the-top, of online road rage. It would be easy to construct a rant on the discourtesy, egoism, grandiosity, ignorance, etc. of online road-ragers. It would be easy to go into road rage about road rage, taking vicious glee in exposing the foibles and gaffs of online road-ragers. Shaming road rage from the outside might serve some purpose too, but I feel that to understand it I need to examine it from within, to look at the glowing road rage embers in my own soul.
I am an introverted thinking type and I have this hunch, but don't have a shred of evidence, that many of the online road-ragers of the sort that write multiple paragraph comments are also introverted thinkers. Also, I sense that most of the Reality Sandwich road-ragers are fellow "mutants." They are highly individualized, cognitively dissident folks who have logged thousands of hours in alienating environments such as schools, workplaces, shopping malls, and various social venues where their point of view was not always welcomed, respected, or acknowledged.
As an introverted mutant, my inner world is often more real to me, more dynamically in the foreground of my awareness, than the outer world, which often seems like noisy, in-your-face mundanity, crassness, and mediocrity coming at me in percussive bursts like a series of 30-second TV ads. So I'm used to carrying my inner world, populated by my divergent thoughts, perceptions and images, around in alienating environments.
Furthermore, as a narcissistic personality type, the ruling personality type of our day, I take considerable pride in my inner world. The alienating environments in which I regularly find myself feel like an implicit dis of my self-importance. Everyone is just passing me by, like I pass them by, as if I were just another body crowding the sidewalk, the highway, or the corridors of cyberspace. These other bodies crowding the space I am trying to navigate seem ignorant and oblivious to the greatness of my inner world. And so I compensate for all the thousand-thousand abrasions and irritations to my self-importance by inflating my inner world. I take excessive and brittle pride in my inner world as the best, most valid, most real, most everything inner world to be found anywhere.
Retreating from the often abrasive, noisy mundanity of public spaces, I bring my precious inner world home with me and incubate it in my personal space.
I sit in my personal space, mesmerized by the pixellated glow of my computer monitor, exploring this vast online labyrinth of zeros and ones. The walls, floors and ceilings of the labyrinth are all mosaics, and every glowing tile is an artifact of other human psyches. Some tiles are beautiful and intriguing, but many others pop up like greedy little hands that promise to elongate my penis, or share the wealth of a Nigerian prince.
Within the labyrinth there are antechambers where I find mosaics that reflect back my own most personal obsessions -- sexual, intellectual, visual, musical, etc. Whatever entrances me, no matter how exotic or unusual, I can clutch it in my sweaty palms and get sucked with it into Google wormholes which transport me to hidden recesses where I will find tiles or whole mosaics related to my obsession.
Recently, I logged onto Reality Sandwich and found an article about Terence McKenna, entitled "Stoned Apes." Terence has been on my mind lately, as just a few days ago was the eleventh year since his passing. I consider Terence a colleague, though I only spoke to him on a few occasions, because our ideas and obsessions paralleled and converged in so many areas. (Read about a weekend of high strangeness I spent with Terence in 1996: A Mutant Convergence...) Just glancing at the title of the article, and without reading a word of the text, I felt both interested and irritated.
The irritation carried a strong flavor of trespass, of someone invading my personal space. I heard a brassy ego voice speaking in my head, a voice whose tone and percussive rhythm felt like the honking of an oversized turn-of-the-century brass car horn, the kind with a large, black rubber bulb to push the air: What's this about Terence McKenna? I'm supposed to be the guy who knows about Terence McKenna. Whose this other guy who thinks he knows about Terence McKenna? Why do I have to read this shit? Dammit! Since I'm the guy who knows about Terence McKenna I better read this and find out what he got wrong so I can set things straight.
On some occasions I have been the irate, red-faced driver, squeezing the black rubber bulb with furious intensity. On this occasion, thankfully, the honking was not in the foreground of my mind; it was more like a car honking on the street a few floors down. The brassy voice was there, getting its two cents in at the periphery of my mind, but mostly I felt curiosity, the title intrigued me, and the article seemed a worthy rabbit hole of zeros and ones. Intuitively, I sensed that there was some novelty within, something new to learn, and was eager to read it.
I entered the article, traversing passages and corridors formed of a lattice of words and thought-forms. Traversing this particular thoughtscape, the honking in the background continued: What's up with this writing style? I would never write like this. Is this guy British or affected or what? In the foreground of my mind I was intrigued, though also a bit chagrined, at some flaws being exposed in Terence's thinking, and a specific, important example of how he had distorted some research in a way that was convenient to one of his theories.
This wasn't a surprise because I had long realized that many of Terence's theories worked best if you took a half-metaphorical step back and interpreted them for general principles without taking the literal specifics too seriously. The few times I talked to Terence, the context was my attempting, very politely and respectfully, to confront him with the flaws of Time Wave Zero and the fudge factors involved, for example, in how he located novelty. I found him graciously and courageously open to dissenting points of view about even his most cherished ideas. For example, one time he replied to one of my challenges, "You're right, novelty is a slippery concept." This one sentence acknowledgment stands out in my memory not just for its content, but also for the humble, gracious, even poignant tone of his voice as he acknowledged my points. The tone of Terence's response was a reflection of the largeness of his character, and his deep and humble commitment to the truth, a commitment that transcended Terence the showman, narcissist, trickster, self-promoter and so forth. It also reflected Terence's genius with spoken language, his ability to impregnate a single sentence with so much meaning.
The way I saw Terence handle divergent perspectives is a gold standard for me. No doubt there were other moments I did not witness when Terence, like other mortals, was squeezing his black rubber bulb and honking with road rage. The point is not about Terence, but about a particular layer of the reality sandwiches that we make and consume on a daily basis. There are usually higher and lower options with the choices we make in the various realities we encounter. There are disagreements that we choose to handle with grace, and others that we handle leaning on the horn and shouting invective at another body moving through time and space or cyberspace.
Commenting online can be a fast, anonymous and cheap adrenaline buzz. Unlike lashing out a friend or coworker, the repercussions seem minor. We usually don't see the face of the person we are objecting to. They are like someone whizzing by us at ninety miles-per-hour on the highway. We see the glass and metallic glare of their speeding exoskeleton, but any human form is at best an abstracted blur.
The thought-forms of other psyches traversing cyberspace can sometimes be thorns in our side or even splinters in our mind. We feel we know exactly what they got wrong. But sometimes the other gets something right, or at least half right, about something that we don't know or don't want to know. Suddenly this stranger is showing up in our precious, mental inner world saying something objectionable about something that we know a lot about, and in which we have a lot invested.
The "Stoned Apes" article at times intrigued me with the very specific flaws it found about a McKenna theory that I always found a bit dubious anyway. At other times I felt a bit offended by the author's condescending and superior attitude toward Terence, and his failure to find or acknowledge anything of value in Terence's work. After I finished the article, I started to read some of the comments and found that many were pointing out some of the flaws I had also found in the article. But the tone of some of these commentators was venomous, and I found whatever content these comments contained was eclipsed by the sense of them as stereotypical examples of online road rage. Just as the author of the article didn't find much merit in Terence, the commentators found no merit whatsoever in any part of the article, which to me seemed to be similarly unjust.
I found that I had a more allergic reaction to the comments than the article, and quickly got restive and left off reading them. Following some forgotten chain of links, I found myself pulled into an even more intriguing article posted on Evolver entitled "The dark legacy of Carlos Castaneda." This article was a rabbit hole in many senses, a fascinating glimpse into the hidden, cultic world of Castaneda's personal sphere. I had read other exposés of Castaneda, and seen a documentary on the subject, but this article was well-written and researched and provided many novel details. I had long considered Castaneda a hoaxer-genius so the article wasn't disillusioning. When I got to the end of this article I read a few comments and found many parallel examples to the road rage tone I found in the comment section of "Stoned Apes." The subject matter had changed, but the tone and tactics of irate commentators had not.
Like most other mortals, I've had some disagreements I've handled well, and many, many that I've handled poorly. Leaving an online comment can be a fast and easy way to vent, but what I try to practice, and recommend that others consider, is to slow it down and relinquish some of the coarseness and aggression that often come with anonymity. When I leave a comment I try to remember that in addition to higher and lower options I have in the content of what I say, I also have higher and lower options in the tone with which I convey my content. I try to remember to ask myself: What does my tone say about me and where I'm coming from?
I also try to remember to respect the otherness of the other, to realize that I am encountering another ship distantly passing my ship in the night of time. Through the mist of zeros and ones I can't even make out the outline of this other ship. I know little or nothing about where it's been or what it's gone through, what forces may have pressed upon it to cause it to yield up the words it has proclaimed that I object to. Very likely this other ship has also passed through alienating currents and storms. It has also passed through obscuring fogs and dark, despairing nights. The view from the deck of this other ship is different, its maps are different, its navigational instruments are calibrated differently. But it is another ship with its own structural integrity, its own trajectory and inertial force, and I need to respect that. As I steer my ship through the sometimes-misty darkness of cyberspace, I know that the wind in my sails will drive me to areas where other ships are navigating the same space. Ship-to-ship signaling is crucial, but many ships handle it differently. Some ships use their canons to fire across the bow of other ships. Others are more diplomatic, and send signals that encourage everyone to navigate more respectfully.
Image by whereisat, courtesy of Creative Commons license.
Tweet- 4-12-11
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Comments
Thank You
Thank you for posting this. I have often felt the same, and noticed with irony that some of the readers of this wonderful website devoted to "evolving consciousness" deal with others' differing ideas with little or no consciousness at all. How can we hope to usher in a more highly evolved consciousness when we cannot even treat each other with kindness and respect? I would encourage readers of this fine website to consider approaching the forum from a space of SHARING instead of a space of DEBATE. This way, all ideas are encouraged and no one is berated simply for having a different perspective.
Have you hugged your enemy today?
never
I never hugged my enemies knowing that it is difficult to forgive them.
If I do, i am not being honest to myself and act like a hypocrite. If there are people who'll tell me they hug their enemies and not forgive them, I don't believe such hug is sincere.
Enemies will remain enemies if you'll not learn to forgive them.
Harold
Darumaturgy
Dude you should write a book
A Cry for Help
Daruma's run-on compound adjective: "...with no narcissistic-introverted loner-psychopath-warrior-sage- types to protect them" may suggest an underlying cause to the acting out that may be true for other pathologizing posters. It sounds like he feels unable to protect himself from himself, unable to deal with the neurotic chaos within as an in-house problem, and therefore he feels compelled to make it a public spectacle. Psychologists like Martin Seligman and others have pointed out that most psychopathology (eating disorders, self-mutilation, online aggression, etc.) happen when people are alone. The reason is that when alone, many people find that they are unable to defend themselves from what Jung called "psychic entropy." Psychic entropy typically takes the form of looping, negative thought fragments. Unable to protect themselves from theiir own psychic entropy, by directing the negative, fragmentary thoughtforms at others via online acting out, they attempt to vent the chaos into the outer world.
Also, since I was an English teacher for 14 years, and am still a creative writing teacher, that the acting out should be in the form of such garbled fiction writing, writing so in need of remediation, I can't help but to read it all as an unconscious cry for help. Of course, what any school teacher learns early on is that both positive and negative reinforcement will encourage the continuation of a behavior. Attention to acting out equals more acting out. If attention of any kind is given to pathologized posting, there will inevitably be more. But in this case where pathologized posting is the subject of inquiry, this is a good thing because we are getting revealing specimens. Even as our poster tries to hide his motives in irrelevance, he makes himself the poster child of the neediness that drives this sort of behavior.
Thanks for this
I so very much agree =) Namaste!
------
you are unique - all you do is ground-breaking
Exceptional
I admire this article and many points it expresses. I find it expresses awareness, and regard for the reality of the human condition. Seems to me we're "all in it together" whether we like it or not.
Clues to so many riddles or perplexities we encounter in others, when our paths cross -- likely lie within us, not them. But its dark inside our own psyche, the deeper we go.
Not only poor lighting, but motivation can be conflicted too. Such introspection as J. Zap engages can take a lot more self-critical honesty, or raw personal substance (not something we learn from geometry or physics), than many of us can muster. Takes personal integrity -- the right stuff, I'd call it.
I find a lot of unusual personal honesty in the thoughts J. Zap offers, not in confronting somebody else who makes him (or any of us) mad, but for looking within. A real discussion, in search of what relates. Not what alienates.
Following quote from a fictional character I admire comes to mind in this connection:
"There's a dark side to each and every human soul. We want to be Obi-Wan Kenobi, and for the most part we are. But there's a little Darth Vader in all of us. Because the thing is, this ain't no either/or proposition. Because we're talking about dialectics, the good and the bad merging into--us. You know, you can run but you can't hide. My experience: face the darkness, stare it down and own it. It's like brother Nietzsche says, being human is a complicated gig. So give that old dark night of the soul a hug. And howl the eternal yes."
Jonathan Zap of
Good questions
Nice contrast between two differing answers to the question. Obama being an exceptional orator, and intelligent guy -- no surprise at his more thoughtful sounding answer compared with McCain. On the other hand, McCain's history as POW establishes a basis for reply Obama doesn't have. Very different foundations of experience, and moral credibility in terms of the 'talk vs walk' dichotomy.
Overall, most tingling to my spidey sense: I wonder what this Pastor Warren is up to, inquiring of these guys thus. Idle curiosity? Somehow my attention is more alerted that way, than directed to the respondents and their replies. To me it just feels, this is what Pastor Warren might slyly intend for us (as his audience in this). That we focus on the responses not the stimulus -- that we 'pay no attention to that man behind the curtain' as it were? He's the one cueing, the director, calling the shot in this little 'staged scenery' as it appears (and bouquets).
I can't help thinking McCain's concept of 'evil' -- the 'pea' of Pastor Warren's question (if 'shell game' is a valid metaphor here) -- might implicitly derive, more than Obama's, from the historic horrors of mid 20th century, man's inhumanity to man, world wars, rise of fascism and its aggression, dilemma posed to allied nations -- all that. Leftist totalitarianism (Stalin's communism) and rightwing (like Hitler, Mussolini ..). If so, different historic examples, with contrasting 'devil in the details,' may inform the difference between these replies.
Here, real life provides the grist for inquiry's mill. STAR WARS and the Force, with its dark and light sides, with protagonist conflicted by their opposition within him -- not just opposing him as 'good guy' to the other as 'bad' -- is a nice thematic mirror from fiction. The Force has been noted as a re-dress of 'mana' -- term from ethnology you may know. A pervasive mystical-like force, of impersonal nature, with potential for good or ill. Medicine power. Humans can access it, but that involves intention, which will be 'light' or 'dark' in nature. And can make 'bad medicine' (harm) or 'good' (heal).
FWIW - the literary-fictional theme of supernatural evil, for example Stoker's DRACULA and its legacy, extremely interesting to me in this light. A motif I call 'the village in fear' reflected therein -- the villagers in the tavern who dummy up with unfriendly suspicion when stranger arrives (Van Helsing, Harker, whoever). They're not worried he's a vampire, they can see he's not. They have a worse fear -- that he's here to try and deal with this Dracula (which they see as their problem not some interloper's). And will fail, like the other's who've tried to slay the dragon, and whose bones litter the ground at the entrance of its lair.
And as they've learned, when the would-be hero fails -- the evil will take out its displeasure with the attempt upon the village, in a spree of violence and horror that will make the once-a-month feeding on some unfortunate peasant wench seem like a small price to pay, by comparison. The villagers understand, from Dracula's pov, its up to them to do what they'd best do, to keep any strangers who've come to town on some kind of 'vampire slayer' trip - well away from the castle where his crypt resides. If they know what's good for them. Or else.
We know the vampire can bite a human without killing, and slave him to its will (like Renfield), have him do the vampire's bidding, guard his coffin by day etc. But the villagers in the tavern haven't been bitten. Yet they might just as well have been, because they are acting the part of Dracula's servants and helpers -- even as they cower in fear under the shadow of his castle crossing their village when the sun sets each day.
And I do find a comparison in fact, in history. The intimidation of fascist aggression, for allied nations -- prior to their entering the war, to defeat evil (borrowing from McCain's rhetoric) -- resembles to me a subliminal manipulation much like Dracula's effect upon the village in fear.
Prime Minister Chamberlain: Hitler will get mad at us if we don't let him have these little tributes he demands, and we don't want to cause him to get worse, so -- I've got this letter, signed by Mr. Hitler, and I think we can have peace in our times. In America, we wanted no part of it either (and who can blame anyone for wanting to stay our of trouble, out of harm's way?). I'm no expert on history, but the correspondence between history and fiction, when it comes to the dark side and light side of the human condition, interests me.
I appreciate your discussion, looking within at both the dark and the light, without flinching (most important, considering). These are vital keys to understanding what confronts us, consistent with your commentary by my reading. A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step, and proceeds one at a time.
Among my many, profound reservations, not just doubts, about stoned apes (and etc.), far beyond anything of scientific significance, is a charming beguiling invitation it offers -- leading in any and all directions -- other than dire realities of the human condition we face or turn away from (to our own best interest, or peril). Nothing to do with shoes or ships or ceiling wax, or theories about whether pigs have wings. A little nonsense now and then is treasured by the best of men, but ... the village in fear faces a human crisis, perhaps calling for something else.
ships in the fog
Love the ship metaphor - beautiful, if I dare say so myself. The whole article is as well, but I feel like it's summed up perfectly by this paragraph:
The "Stoned Apes" article at times intrigued me with the very specific flaws it found about a McKenna theory that I always found a bit dubious anyway. At other times I felt a bit offended by the author's condescending and superior attitude toward Terence, and his failure to find or acknowledge anything of value in Terence's work. After I finished the article, I started to read some of the comments and found that many were pointing out some of the flaws I had also found in the article. But the tone of some of these commentators was venomous, and I found whatever content these comments contained was eclipsed by the sense of them as stereotypical examples of online road rage. Just as the author of the article didn't find much merit in Terence, the commentators found no merit whatsoever in any part of the article, which to me seemed to be similarly unjust.
I feel like this is what I was getting at in the comment I made on the "Stoned Ape" article, which was subsequently lost in the swirl of what may be called an "online rush hour traffic jam." Essentially what I was trying to get across is that both arguments had been rendered moot by the vitriol. Akers seemed to descend into a fevered, ego-driven crusade against McKenna's character, not his theory.
Daruma (as he's aptly demonstrated here) makes little to no sense - while objections to Akers' points may have been valid, the character and tone of these replies disintegrated any integrity they could have contained. I have witnessed similar forms of discourse both online and in the real world - I can attest to the fact that the egos which generate them are often megalomaniacal, and in a violent, unnatural state of flux.
In navigating the zeroes and ones, it seems that complex arguments mimic their medium, becoming binary, a mutually exclusive this-not-that which belies the rich complexity of anything so wonderful as psychedelia, evolution, etc...
anyway... excellent psycho-social analysis of an ugly phenomenon. It's just as important to look at the "how" of dialogue/argument as well as the points and facts.
ps
155
Hi Mental Pyro,
As of this moment, there are 155 comments to "Stoned Apes." If any comments have been deleted, it was because they were spam or didn't follow the comment guidelines, which can be found here: http://www.realitysandwich.com/comments_guidelines
I'll admit aggression
Fluctuating Comment Numbers
Comment Numbers
It Takes a Vampire Village
Jonathan Zap of
Fascinating article
I am also often discouraged by the all too frequent and unnecessary pettiness and egotism displayed by online road rage. I respectfully disagree though with one poster that we should "share not debate" because the inference that debates are crass and sharing isn't seems rather uninformed. I recall a fabulous movie with Denzel Washington called The Great Debaters which illustrated how genuine debate can and ought to be executed with respect, intelligence, honor and passion without demeaning anyone personally.
There's more I'd like to respond to specifically but am crunched for time regrettably but I would like to offer a suggestion to JZ on format. Please consider using paragraphs/spacing in your own comments like Mr. Atkers. I find it difficult to read such large chunks of script without breaks, kinda strains my eyes.
Also, wanted to check out the oracle card you referenced but when I did a search at your website for "Light and Dark are Interrelated" it didn't come up. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Aho~Mitakuye Oyasin~All My Relations
i think it is remarkable
Thank the pigs!
Master Yeshua also loves and has compassion for the money-changers, Pharisees and scribes.
He also has compassion for the demons of Legion when he agrees to send them out into the pigs. And yes he dearly loves the pigs and yes the pigs agree to do this and yes we should really thank the pigs!
You're welcome.
Cult Lunatics?
perhaps
I don't read the surface "socratic dialogue" I read the stuff that was stuck in most on the responses from mister Akers, which held all this monologue almost like hidden within all the other stuff.So it is no wonder that mister Zap did not see anything. Because well, he doesn't have time to bother.But he does have time to once again defend him.And toss in the surface "socratic dialogue" Well that is all fine and dandy.And we might as well ignore all that other stuff, because, I mean it brings up shadow stuff.In my first response to mister Akers, I was attempting to have a dialogue.But in each response he kept putting this slight of hand comments about people being cult followers, and in each case.Otherwise he did say other things that were more engaged, but he still had to keep banging that same cult thing.I don't care if mister Zap doesn't have the time to really look into it, however it did go to his whole "internet rage" argument.And I don't care if people want to think that anybody that don't agree with mister Akers is a cult weirdo or whatever he means.Basically I think this whole issue has become obscured, and now mister Zap has side stepped it.Because he is too busy.And i don't blame him.But this whole thing came up because of mister Akers, and he still is being illusive.It reminds me of that old elephant story.Even mister Zap is still arguing that there just may be some cultish followers of Terence, because well, mister Akers said so.
Ah, on second thought I think I am beginning to see what is going on here, and why mister Akers and Mister Zap are on the same wave length.It is for the reason of writing books,and the whole "cult follower" thing I said cult lunatic or cult weirdo, but to be more "socratic" lets just say cult follower like.And mister Zap has some examples, as does mister Akers, and they have to beat that drum because it is a new cottage industry, and Terence Mckenna is well, a real big fish now to toss out there for examples.Yes I see it all now.And I also see mister Zaps and mister Akers wheels turning in their heads.Cult follower person =internet road rage=socratic dialogue, yup.
Don't Care Means you Do Care
garbled
Again you side step, by hurling the "garbled" word at me, i was wondering how long it would take before you used that on my commentary.I gave the evidence, you just did not want to hear it.Again you defend mister Akers.You side step anything that does not back up your argument.What ever that is.And then you sound like a lawyer, that say I have to have evidence.That's right don't believe me,oh and now do what you accuse others of doing.Give me your "new age" holier then thou, you should do more "self reflection"sounds cult like to me....
comment.And yes if i ended all my comments to the other person that does not just go along with everything i say with...pip pip, "but you should be more self reflective."Hey what's the difference between you and mister Akers who always in this comments to anyone that does not agree with his "all you cult people that don't agree with me" come backs.I don't need no stinking evidence mister Zap.I just made this all up because I am a cult follower, that is full of internet road rage that does not reflect on anything, who is becoming garbled, because I dared call mister akers on his constant inclusion of sneaky comments about cult followers.But are so clear because well you said anyone that you can't use your lawyer tactics on, you can just call them "GARBLED" Frankly I think your whole premise here is garbled.You and mister Akers Cherry pick your little agendas, and then sneak around certain defensive tactics, like calling people cult followers, or calling them garbled, as soon as anyone actually cares to bother to call you on it.But I know you a are too busy, and after all your premise has to remain consistant because you have build the whole ediface of your facade upon it.Oh and you can toss in some quotes by Jung, and so on.
All you have to do is go back and read mister Akers whole agenda in his endless comments, and you will see all the references to 'cult followers" stuff.But I know you will not do that because you actually have a very similar agenda.This whole thing that you are now beating on, the"internet road rage" thing is so like Mister Akers "cult follower" thing, and in fact they back each other up and dovetail each other.Almost like you and mister Akers figured this whole ruse out together before hand.Almost.
Wild Things
and i think
Side step it, once again.
I have been a cult follower
Meltdown
I wonder if anyone has seen the STAR TREK episodes where the "programming source" - the in-control, all powerful (usually turns out to be a computer) -- seizes up and fries its brains, going ka-blooey ... when it is confronted by reasoned appeal, with a fatal, fundamental contradiction between its mission as stated ("the Good of the Body") and its implementation of that mission by thought programming?
I don't know how familiar people are with the basic storyline of these episodes, recycled with variations from one to another. Nomad, Landru, Vaal, etc.
The computer thinks that 'the good' lies in peace and order, in nobody ever saying or doing anything to make -- or might make -- somebody else uncomfy -- if not downright unhappy!
The computer, not being human, doesn't understand that the human potential is irreducibly ambiguous. Dr. Jekyll didn't either. The human quantity is just not subject to alchemical purification, that will bring about a utopian society.
If we every got rid of our evil and refined the soul to pure good and wonderfulness -- we will have lost the one thing that is actually ours, by right: our humanity. Warts and all. Indeed, in another TREK episode, Capt Kirk undergoes a 'doubling' split -- into an all-good, and an all-evil (Jekyll/Hyde) doppleganger. But the 'good' one (who has the right ethos) lacks qualities the 'bad' has, on account of which neither has its full humanity and potential. Instead of getting rid of the bad one, and going with the 'good' one ... its necessary to re-unite them and get our whole humanity -- our whole Capt -- back.
There is a sense of panic I'm seeing in renewed, intensified "napalm" (or vitriol) content and posting activity -- especially in the posts of (blog avatar withheld) and (blog avatar withheld). To me, this suggests an awareness that light and reason are perhaps taking the lead, against contrary designs of steely determination -- to set limits on it, telling it: "That's as far as you go -- step over this line, and we will attack you."
If attackers unwittingly spray their napalm in too wide a swath -- spread their effort to thin, too many targets.... If more people start engaging conscience and regard for things that matter in this TM-related discussion arena .... if the reasoned calm, principle and authentic ethos are brought to bear beyond a certain level -- I wonder if a fanatic-like or "cult-like psychosocial pattern" could stall out in the stealthy, culturally pathological advance. Could it be turned around? Could light of reason regain ground that has been lost to it?? I wonder ....
Toys in the Attic Still Rattling
Good reading
JZ - thanks for the links to your website and essays. I've not read all of them yet, there's a lot there.. But there's plenty of signal in what I've read (like Mutant Con 1996) -- the insights into your history and thoughts.
Interesting how many points of interface I am finding. For example, your previous familiarity over years with writings of Vallee (btw, UFO Matrix magazine looks to be gonna run an article of mine soon, titled: TILL EARTH STANDS STILL - CHILDHOOD'S FINAL END).
I was unaware of your webpage and writings until this forum where our paths crossed, as they have. No big note, this post, but -- many thoughts and intersection points hover in mind.
One minor: maybe you know already -- a recent podcast interview you might like to check out, if you haven't, from just this month -- with John Hoopes, Ph.D. specialist in Maya. You likely know, he has an intense focus of interest in the '2012 meme' as he calls it. And an exceptionally well-informer pov all his own.
In case you or anyone wants to check it out, its at: www.gnosticmedia.com
beware the pre/trans fallacy
Article
surrealized
Shows you know nothing about surrealism.Let alone poetry.Your comment is also mean spirited.Which is why you and Mister Akers get along so well.He is on a mission to prove that anybody that does not agree with his rationalized version of things is a "cult follower"And I think you Mister Zap is on a similar mission.I think Terence had to tolerate a lot of stuffed shirt intellectuals like you, that come up with little self-perpetuating systems that rationalize the works of people like Jung, and takes a bit of Wilbur here and a bit of that there, and turns the collective unconscious into a zoo or circus.And your little system is so air tight, just like mister Akers, with the escape hatch, and nice neat holier then thou-ness all intact, that either a person would see the flaws in your little smug system or they would be impressed with its cleverness.Your too clever mister Zap.And the pre/trans rationalization serves only to give you yet another clever little escape valve.So you like mister Akers are on a mission and he calls people cult followers if they don't kiss up to him, and you do the same thing in your own little clever way, you relegate people to your clever rationalized version of Jung's collective unconscious.And your rationalized phony little trap which is another version of calling people cult followers as a put down, and that is your rationalized fixed pre/conceived "internet road rage"which is your too clever escape route, to dump on anybody that is not just wowed by your "something wicked this way comes" version of divination.Ha! You are no Surrealist Mister Zap, and no romantic revolutionary, and you never will be.You are like a carny barker charlatan, yuppie "new age" rationalist as far as this whole conversation went. And I am sure...Terence merely tolerated your too clever comments about Timewave.The new ager that pretends not to be a new ager by pretending to knock "new
age"people, but who else buys your bag of tricks? hah!
One thing that I learned in my "cult" explorations, is that merely taking other peoples systems whether you dismantle say Carlos Castenada,Wilbur, and or Jung, or Terence, or the Tarot or I-Ching and concoct a too clever system of your own to razzel dazzel "new age" yuppie types, it still is just a little jack in the box, highly glorified.I'm not dazzeled Zap!
A magician is coming straight through....a sorcerer is coming from angles...
all i see from mister Zap is angles.this whole article was an angle, the "internet road rage" angle just as Mister angle is 'oh look at the cult followers" and the two rationalists agree, bcause "new agers" are too rationalized to see through the ruse.
just look at this title...Transcending Online Road Rage....but what really is behind that?
it implies that the person that wrote that provocteur title is so transcendent.That "he" is so aboveit all.But look how this title seemed to spring off of Mister Akers..."cult followers"provocation.
And I saw the two of them get more and more self-satisfied together.They had both whipped up at tempest in a tea pot.The two self-important rationalists know who they are.Snicker
snicker.
again...if they don't fall over themselves in awe of your clever-system, call them pre/rational
oooooooooooooooh....PRE RATIONAL!!!!!!! or call them...CULT(pre/rational(weirdo)follower
see I'm sitting above you all on my pedistal, and i'm finding people that don't just agree with me
so I call them a lable that I place on them....and in the know-it-all circles that I move in, we all know what a PRE RATIONAL!!!!! label means.Snicker....(a secret put down that says the person does not conform to RATIONAL thinking.Sounds cultish to me.
p.s. I agree that some people are irrational and some people are too rational, and some dance back and forth, but to use that to device a systematic clever way to always make your self look like your observations are always fool proof, and that the labels become an end it it self, and actually perpetuate the very thing you pretend to not be doing, is that rational?
pre/rational is such self mockery, why don't you just call people backwards morons?
that is what you really are saying.But you are the perfect rational person.(self-satisified)
oh
Haha
Other Side of Coin
One likely feature of not having to post face to face or in front of a camera is that it takes that ever so blatant "politically correct" white washed version we so often see and hear on other forums where one has to consider outside of their own focused unique contention.
One can still get carried away but at the very least they will have more opportunity to turn over every stone of their psyche more indiscriminately, for better or worse, working through their own issues of a given premise without distraction.
Of course without organic social interaction one can become hyper-focused on their individuality ... yet one can also be saved from unnecessary ass-kissing and just let out how they feel.
Catch 22
"Wonder is what Mystery would do if it was conscious" ...
"Wandering is for every other possibility"
Pippalayana Muni
my feeling
Transcendance
I think that is good question
"How do we respond meaningfully to what we see as wrong?"
That sounds like valid inquiry to me. A question it raises in this context (( find) is -- whether meaningful response, or the possibility thereof, is an idea we value.
And all subsidiary aspects -- how would we define "meaningful" or distinguish "wrong" and so on. These are crucis biscuitis, I think -- deserving reflection and discussion. Unfortunately, there is a tide in these blogs that turns aggressively against response, thoughtful discussion -- especially across lines that divide one perspective from another.
I wonder if you'll get attacked now, by posters who've not had their rabies shots, going after anybody who dares make engage reason. If you are attacked, may I suggest -- that's just the "customary and usual" mob reaction -- for anybody who dares to push the leading edge of exploratory inquiry (rather than dancing around the golden idols or honoring the sacred cows).
The attacks here, for all their venom and vitriol, do not reflect in any way (despite their ulterior intentions) upon those being attacked. I find they do reflect though, richly and abundantly -- in boomerang fashion.
Tower of Babel
This and the "Stoned Apes" post seem to have gone off track in a major way.
Frankly. I had hardly even follow the arguments.
Comments are rambling, stream-of-consciousness.
Some seem to be speaking in language they and their friends may understand but with invented words and terms with meaning only to themselves.
Some complete thoughts and paragraphs might help.
Starting sentences in lower case doesn't make what you are saying more profound.
Putting a hyphen or a slash between any two random words does not create a new concept.
The ellipsis... only tells us that your brain cannot make all of the connections it should be making.
Perhaps some of you are devolving?
see here again the point is missed
as if stream of consciousness, is bad and a put down "rambling" added on.Oh Horrible! they use stream of consciousness...and and....they RAMBLE!!! Ohhhhhhhh terrible terrible, what
it really is saying .....I can't be bothered to read it, because well there might actually be something there that I do not understand, so blame the person.This is another kind of rage.Notice that I
mentioned Alice in Wonderland
, it's not just a children's story.Or Finnegan's wake that most people would blame it for being "stream of consciousness" Allen Ginsberg's Howl was accused of being obscene, but it was attacked also for using languge that was "stream of consciousness" they did not use that term but they tried to say that it had no literary meret.What is so terrible about "stream of consciousness?
why do people that are suppose to be creative thinkers, have to attack it? And or call it "garbled" or rambling, you should be glad that a person takes the time to write in a "stream of Consciousness" instead you attack it.Why because you are afraid of it? because you can't do it? but no you have to attack it.Is this not an example of internet rage? Oh everything has to sound like its in a collage class room.
And has to fit into some narrow view of what this whole topic pretends to be about.Oh the rage,the horror...stream of consciousness, so funny, William James came up with that term, for a reason, and any creative thinking writer uses it, Terence Mckenna used it, when you are on a psychedelic , you are in a stream of consciousnes, but here it seems a treat to some who pretend to be creative thinkers.Oh Oh, he is making a new concept attack attack bad terrible!!!attack!!!, well, i did not come up with the pre/conscious thing.I was just seeing how the author of this article would use it.And guess what, it was used as a put down.Oh the horror! stream of consciousness, rambling, we should attack you for that.Terrible!!!!!!oh the ramble, oh the rage.attack attack!!!!((((Tower of Bable!!!!)))),ooooh, all my religious conditioning is being threatened..oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, the horror!!!! stream of consciousness.....something wicked this way comes...................biddi bibbi bable bable, thats all folks!!!
I've read James Joyce
wildthing
and you're no James Joyce.
Garbage in garbage out,a
Tower of Babel Syntax
Sound reflections on important aspects
Jimcross, if I may I'd like to add my resounding agreement for what its worth, to JZ's reply to your post, thus:
"If what is wrong has mostly to do with acting out psychopathology of the writer/speaker then any response is unlikely to be useful except to reinforce the Tower of Babel."
This is the very principle on which I decline to participate with various invitations I've received to power struggle, argue, etc. I consider it urgently vital to distinguish 'acting out' as manifesting alienation and unable to relate -- from interaction that could possibly help further understanding (rather than only yield more of the opposite).
There is a lot to this. As you know about the road to hell -- despite our best intentions, to pursue better mutual understanding, we can all too easily get drawn in to conflict. Whenever that happens, against our own principles, we become party to an opposite purposes of arguing and futile head-banging.
The only effective way I know, or have found, to defeat the manipulation that poses (so often covert in large part) -- is by solemnly and soberly realizing its nature, in terms of pathology (psychological, spiritual, whatever terms one puts it in) wherever it arises, whenever it tries to engage.
I hope anyone else here under attack simply for engaging thoughtful discussion -- reason instead of vitriol; from whatever perspective they speak -- is no more dismayed or surprised or bothered by any of it than I am. Every post here offers a reflection that can ultimately be viewed with insight -- at least as examples in evidence of various reasonable points and observations that have been posted here.
The Pope in Birkenstocks
Bravo for life's little synchronicities
And hearty nods to robust reflections, especially off a sentence of mine. Indeed, how dare any of us judge anything ?? Such audacity. And your final quote really goes way deep, and with true aim I think: "So even the counter-cultural psychonaut may have their own unrecognized, implicit religion. And woe to the infidel who dares questions its tenets and patron saints!" In the academic-scholarly journal, "new religious movement" is mostly used, rather than "religion" per se (too hard to define?). Its a term without the inflammatory potential and reactions "cult" carries, although some of what it includes falls well within that spectrum There is a Masters Thesis, maybe a Doctoral Dissertation -- or some kind of significant study awaiting along lines of what you say, but even exceeding them I suggest possibly. It might be formatted as a question for study, investigation, such as: To what extent can we distinguish a new religious movement, largely implicit and not generally recognized as such -- "countercultural psychonautics" (if we like, I borrow from your phraseology). What are its features as such, if we can recognize it on defining criteria. The 'woe' and sanctification phenomena may not need to explicitly named as such to qualify. But they would qualify as features of a new religious movement I would think. And I'd realize some concerns accordingly, in the sense of a fundamentalist-like aspect it holds, ambivalence or outright opposition toward science and reason recalling the some traditional western sects. The content of counterculture psychonautics, if one could define it usefully for a study, deserves attention for its importance socially and culturally -- not just academically, but for issues it may raise, questions we might like to ponder.
Context Specific
"Sorry for the offense everyone ..."
first of all venom