Sign Up Now
Login/New User

Psyche

Practice as Befits You

Andrew Boyd

 

This essay is part three in a five-part series accounting the author's stay in a monastery in Thailand. Click here for parts one and two. An abridged version previously appeared in The Sun.

 

[Pilgrimage to Nowhere] • I lingered in bed the next morning, groggy and resentful, finally dragging myself upstairs for an abbreviated and fruitless meditation. Fruitless, because I was still in yesterday's mental funk. Abbreviated, because that morning, in a break from our usual routine, all students from the center had been invited to join the full Sangha for early morning chanting in the upper monastery, abbot presiding. Hannes and I walked in silence along the footpath. It was a few minutes past 5:30 a.m. The dawn was a diffuse blue glow in the mostly night sky. As we passed by the great bronze bells and up the marble stairs into the inner courtyard, we could hear the monks' voices already rising and falling.

The small open-walled shrine glittered like gold; yellow fluorescence tricked off gilded wall paintings and Buddha statuary. Black-and-white portrait photos of Doi Suthep's revered monks stood at off angles against the inside wall; candlelight played across their glass-frames. We were a few minutes late. The chanting was already underway; the shrine already close-packed with kneeling saffron-robed monks and white-robed apprentices. As inconspicuously as possible, Hannes and I knelt down in formation. As we tried to prostrate at the right moments and catch the low-toned syncopated rhythms while making sure that our feet were correctly positioned, toes uncurled out, it was hard not to think of Indiana Jones. Specifically, that moment when Indy and his quirky British sidekick have slipped into the labyrinthine temple complex of some ancient bloodthirsty nazi-affiliated cult, bonked two people over the head and stolen their robes. Wrapped in white to their eyeballs, they're shuffling along, trying to blend in, combat boots sticking out from under their robes. Suddenly a big gong sounds and all the white-robed people around them fall to the ground, mumbling prayers. The imposters scramble to their knees, bowing clumsily, and stealthily darting their eyes sideways to see how it's done. The British sidekick says something like, "But Indy, this is not your relig - " "Just do the head and the hands thing!" Harrison Ford spits back under his breath, "and chant, will you!" And they chant, sort of. And somehow, in spite of their boots and their mumbled chanting, they pull it off -- they don't get caught. I am not sure I would have been so lucky.

What we were doing, or trying to do -- besides chant in unison and prostrate ourselves at unexpected moments -- was honor and recommit ourselves to the precepts of the monk's life; to ask for nothing more than food and shelter; to pursue right thinking and right living; to extend loving kindness to all beings. As I intoned the Pali syllables, reading along with the English translation, I felt that there was something quite beautiful and guileless about it. In a noticing, noticing way, I took in my surroundings: the golden light of the shrine against the dark glimmering sky, the rhythmic collective heartbeat of these mysterious phonemes amid the silences of early morning. It was a strange haven: at once beautiful and deeply alien; simple yet inscrutable. Was I in a cult or a moment of profound human communion? It was hard to say.

As if in answer, the chanting suddenly stopped. Everyone turned 180 degrees to face a small but obviously very important altar. If I correctly remembered the tourist information plaque I had read the day before, it housed a 2500-year-old reliquary (more or less the Buddhist equivalent of a splinter from the True Cross). Then, just as suddenly as they had stopped, the monks began chanting again, as well as engaging in a goodly number of prostrations in the direction of the relic. Or so I sensed from my peripheral vision, because with the 180 degree turn around, Hannes and I were no longer unobtrusively hidden in the back row, able to look around and follow others. Now we were in the very front row, ceremonial leaders of an increasingly complex series of chants and prostrations to the Buddha's fingernail. Not only that, but being in the front, I realized with a sudden surge of panic, meant that the bottoms of my feet were pointing up into the faces of all the monks behind me. Lonely Planet had warned readers that this was the gravest insult possible in the cultures of South East Asia. The bottoms of one's feet, said the guidebook, being the part of the body farthest from the crown of one's head, are the dirtiest and most un-soulful part of the body and should never be pointed directly at any Thais, especially monks. You're not even supposed to hook your leg over your knee while riding on a bus for fear of insulting the passenger next to you with just a sideways glimpse of the dreaded foot-bottom. Here I was, pointing said dreaded foot-bottom at a roomful of monks that included the Abbot of the third largest monastery in Thailand. In spite of having just reconfirmed our precepts against hurting other living beings, I half expected a tap on the shoulder and a secret platoon of armed monks to strong arm Hannes and me out of the shrine.

Before this could happen, however, the chanting came to a close and we turned back around. An older monk, sitting with several others on a raised platform to the left of the shrine beckoned Phra Sam over to translate. This must be the Abbot, I thought -- partly because of the aura of gentle relaxed authority with which he beckoned Phra Sam over, and partly because -- minus the leathery green skin -- he looked strikingly like Yoda. He had Yoda's round face, and his ears stuck out like Yoda's ears. When he spoke, his lips moved in Yoda-like mouth shapes, and at the end of every third statement, he would offer up a world-wise, Yoda-like chuckle. Unlike Yoda, however, he was holding this oddly shaped white plastic handset six inches from his head. What was it? It wasn't quite a telephone. A voice amplifier for his limp and aging vocal cords? A device to record all his statements for posterity? And how had I of all people ended up here: on bended knees -- my combat boots sticking out from under my white robes -- listening to Yoda talk to Buddha on some cosmic rotary phone.

The abbot turned to the apprentice-monks and with a modest hand gesture welcomed us. He asked Phra Sam where we were from. Phra went around the room Nigeria, England, Romania, America... "It's never been like this at Doi Suthep," said the abbot with a great smile, clearly pleased at the fast growth of the international program. He spoke to us. His words were brief and gently questioning. It was no sermon, but rather a modest chat on the life of the monk, little of which I remember except his parting advice to us all: "Practice as befits you." Well, I thought, as the dawn cleared away the stars and we walked back along the garden path, that answers all my questions. And none of them.

* * *

For the rest of the day Phra Sam split the group in two. Those who had completed the full 21-day course were to head off-site with him. Exactly where, I wasn't sure. Reports were to be at 8 p.m. not the usual 3 p.m. Finally, turning to the remaining five of us, all relative newcomers, he invoked his favorite phrase: "Go practice."

And so I did. Or tried. By this point -- day four -- I was up to 25 minute segments. 25 minutes walking; 25 minutes sitting. Which is a long time to be wasting your life. Or so it felt as I continued the pattern of unfocused mental drift that had been so frustrating the day before. My belly wouldn't relax. Career plans and sexual cravings skulked around. Pin pricks of humiliation from last year's rotten radio interview kept resurfacing. My practice was crap! I was going nowhere, sliding backwards, even. Worse than all this: the picture of myself that was emerging -- riven with pettiness and vanity and shame and self-absorbed desires -- was not pretty. I was beyond frustrated. I felt sad and defeated. And to think: the brochure had promised freedom from suffering.

I went back to the room. Back to my little corner, back to my four rough wool blankets. I wanted to curl up in my corner far away from all this, far away from my inner struggles to achieve peace, quiet, and serenity. But I couldn't get any further away. I was already on retreat, after all. Instead I lay rigid under a few blankets, pretending I was doing prone-meditation, pretending to myself and also to Silent Brother Tim across the room, whose evil eye I could feel on me, judging me with each pass of his walking meditation. I went back upstairs. The meditation hall was empty, the early morning light making its walls seem paper-thin. I walked. And then I sat. And somehow, this time, it was different. I found myself simply noticing, noticing. My hopelessness had burned away any expectations. I was letting myself be, however I might be. The feeling of shipwreck inside me, the strange pureness of it, came forth. My sadness found itself. The monkey mind grew quiet. Time passed slowly.

Afterwards I noticed things in a heightened way. Things that had always been there: The refracted whorls of fingertip skin pressed against the far side of a glass of water as I drank it; two birds no longer chirping indiscriminately, but engaged in an intimate conversation.

* * *

At lunchtime the courtyard was nearly empty. There were only the five of us that had not gone on the mysterious field trip that morning. Pony-Tailed Terri, sitting against the peeling-plaster wall; Silent Brother Tim focused with iron intensity on his rice soup; Smiling Tomas lying on the grass digesting in a bright patch of sunlight; Hannes and myself. As per custom, and minus the occasional shlurp, we ate in silence.

Hot chocolate was the one luxury we were permitted. You made it yourself with a combination of hot water, a mysterious bulk chocolate powder, a milk powder, copious amounts of sugar, and - if you wanted it to be spiritually correct - no ants. You had to blow the ants (non-violently, of course) off each of the tins before opening them. Which, as I assembled my mug at the close of lunch, I had to do three times for each bin, harder and harder each time. Trying to practice mindfulness, I was saying blowing, blowing to myself each time I did so. I was saying noticing, noticing. And what I noticed was Smiling Tomas, empty mug in hand, looking over at my strenuous blowing efforts. He was smiling even more than usual.

"These ants have extremely strong traction," I whispered. He nodded. He was tall, nearly 6' 4", a lanky yet somehow graceful 20-year-old, with boyish, even angelic, good looks. His mop of blond Viking hair had disappeared the day before, leaving a stubby pate, as well as a kinked gash where our cook's razor had gone awry.

"How's the practice going?" he asked. The Practice. It sounded like the next NBC reality show: The Practice -- 5 monks in an inner-city Zen Center -- their lives, their loves, their quest for self-annihilation.

"Oh, up and down. This morning some good stuff, but earlier today and yesterday I was actually pretty upset. Stuff is coming up, you know. You create all this empty space and all kinds of stuff shows up to fill it, in dreams, sitting, everywhere. I think it's like the return of the repressed, you, know?

"That shows you're really practicing, if stuff is coming up."

"Yeah, well."

"There were days when I was sobbing."

"Sobbing? Whole days? Because of the practice?" This is what I had to look forward to.

"Mmm Hmmm."

"The thing is I just don't know whether I'm doing things right. It's hard for me to know if I'm making progress."

"You're doing it right if stuff's coming up."

"Really?"

"Uh huh."

"Well, that helps.

"Good.

"But then -- and I know we're not really supposed to be thinking about this on retreat so much -- I'm also having trouble with a lot of Buddhist metaphysics."

"Like what?"

"Well, I'm down with the broad idea that all our concepts, all that we perceive, are, in a sense illusions, fictitious ego-based constructions. But I'm too much of a materialist to take it all the way. What about the body, for example? Sure, the body is impermanent, and the particular way we've conceptualized it is an illusion, but the body has an independent reality of its own. The mind wouldn't even be here without the body."

"True enough."

"And the whole rebirth thing, for another. I don't buy it. And it's not consistent anyway, 'cause there's no soul or self in Buddhism to be reborn -- "

"There is a soul in Buddhism."

"Not according to my reading. The Buddha broke radically with the earlier Vedic philosophy exactly around their notion of a hard, permanent soul -- the Atman, the self, spirit."

"Yeah..."

"So, there's no ongoing identity to be reborn. Like everything else, self, ego and soul are illusions."

"There's no personality, maybe not a soul in that sense, that gets reborn. But there's a see-er, a place from which to gaze, that does get reborn."

"Hmmmm...that's pretty deep for a 20-year old with no hair."

Smiling Tomas smiled.

"When I try to bring any of this up with Phra Sam, I get nowhere."

"Yeah, he doesn't know anything."

"Uh,..." This was a bit of a shock. I agreed, or thought I did, but was surprised to hear it so baldly stated. "Anything?"

"Hardly."

"At the dharma talk the other night, he sure seemed pretty one-dimensional, pretty by the book."

"It's ALL by the book. That's all he knows."

"But at least he's a decent teacher of 'The Practice.'"

"Actually, no, he's terrible."

"You think so?"

"Yeah. He teaches beginners and those with 10 years of experience the same way. You see the book he's got...?" Yes, I remembered he did have a little notebook at his side during the reporting sessions. He'd glance at it and make notes in pencil. It reminded me of a grading book a junior high teacher of mine had used to track our progress. "That's the regime. He just insists on that. You can't teach that way. I was reporting to him the other day, telling him about an insight I had had during a very deep meditation, about the nature of thought behind the thinking -- "

"The nature of thought behind the thinking?"

"Yes. And it wasn't in the book, you know, and he couldn't handle it. He was like there is only ‘thinking...thinking.' He cut me off: ‘When you're thinking, just be ‘thinking...thinking.' Do 30 walking, 30 sitting, now go practice.'"

"He sent you off? Just like that? He did that to me too."

"He's a terrible teacher. He believes in forced meditation. Meditate no matter what. Even if your brain is boiling with thoughts, sit down and meditate. No! That's wrong. Sometime you don't meditate all day, and then you sit down and do it when you feel like it and you have a great meditation. He's only been studying Buddhism for two years. Only teaching for five months. I've been studying for three times as long as he has. He hasn't had the experience, he hasn't had the insights himself. He has a temper. He's insecure. He knows all the terms and all the stories, but it's as if he hasn't meditated at all."

"But you, you're here. Why? Are you just going through the motions to get your ordination?"

He nodded. He was a week away from completing his full 21-day course, after which he hoped to be accepted into the Sangha. He would leave Doi Suthep then, wandering from monastery to monastery in his saffron robes. Busses would let him ride for free, people would put food in his begging bowl.

"Does he know what you think?"

"Not really."

"What happens during reporting?"

"I just show my respect. And then practice exactly as I want."

"'Practice as befits you,' like the abbot said."

"Right."

"Well, Jesus!" I exclaimed, invoking another God I didn't believe in. "This is a revelation! I am not going crazy, after all. I can't tell you how confirming this is. I've just been ping-ponging around in my head for days. Am I totally arrogant? Is he a fraud? Am I the only one who's feeling this way?"

"Kind of helps that none of us meditators can talk to each other, huh?" As if part of a studied comic duo, we both arch our eyebrows and turn carefully side to side, pretending to look out for the monastery secret police.

"So listen, now that I've got you here -- a knowledgeable person I can actually talk to and all -- aren't walking and sitting meditation different? Sitting is where the real shit happens, right?"

"Yes."

"I knew it, damn it! I knew it. So, what's the exact division of labor?"

"Walking meditation comes from the Maha Sattpatthana Sutta, It's like Tai Chi and Yoga. It's used to clear the mind by getting you to focus on something outside the mind. It prepares you to sit and meditate."

"That's what my instincts have been telling me. So, why couldn't the Phra Sam have told me this? Seems simple enough."

He looked at me expectantly.

"Because -- he's -- a -- terrible," we both said in unison.

"Teacher."

"He doesn't explain anything," continued Tomas. "Just tells you what to do. But the Why? is important."

"Okay, another question. When you're doing walking meditation, are your feet one or separate?"

"One and separate."

"Right! That's exactly what I've been thinking."

"He's just repeating stuff he was taught. Can't deal with any other situations."

"How did he get in this position?"

"Maybe because he's the only white English and Thai-speaking monk up here."

"Huh."

"You should talk to Roger about all this.

"Roger?"

"Yeah...big bald guy, you've seen him getting lunch with us sometimes..."

"Oh, yeah, him." I remembered him on the food line the day before, a big-chested, bullet-headed man in his early fifties. I remembered him ladling his rice and vegetable curry with slow, well-channeled movements; his mouth in neutral, his eyes wearing a grin. "What's his story?"

"He's The Philosopher Dude. He runs the Center. Does drop-in meditation demos. And teaches Buddhist philosophy courses."

"He's not a monk?"

"No. 'I have enough precepts of my own,' he told me. ‘I don't need theirs too.'"

"He sounds like The Man To See."

"He's cool, but The Man To See -- The Real Man To See -- is Ajaan Tong."

"Right, now where exactly does he fit in?"

"The teacher of all the teachers, the true master of the monastery."

"Wait, so what about the Abbot?"

"From this morning?"

"Yeah, the one who looks like Yoda and talks to Buddha on the phone."

"He runs Doi Suthep."

"So, where's this Ajaan Tong?"

"South of here, at another monastery. That's where everyone went today."

"Ah ha."

I thanked Smiling Tomas. He gently dipped his head to me and we went our separate ways. Things at Doi Suthep were becoming clearer and murkier in equal measures. With each revelation, it seemed, a new intrigue was added. Tomorrow I would go see this Roger Philosopher Guy. And maybe later, if I could, this Ajaan Tong. Until then, I was more or less on my own.

I meditated throughout the afternoon, trying to reimagine my left and right foot as both one and separate. Modest results ensued. Evening came. From the marble balcony Hannes and I watched the sun slide behind the lights of Chiang Mai as two scabby temple dogs tried to hump each other in the half-shadows, claws scuttling across the moonlit marble.

 

It had been dark for at least an hour before the rest of the crew returned. I crossed paths with Adrian in the courtyard, indicating with my fingers that I wanted to speak with him briefly.

"How was the visit?" I asked.

"It was good to meet such a One," he replied, somewhat solemnly.

That sounded like an endorsement. But I was full of doubts now. The only other time Adrian and I had spoken had been when I'd first arrived. "Phra Sam is a good teacher," he had told me then.

 

email

Thank you for your interest in spreading the word on Reality Sandwich.

NOTE: We only request your email address so that the person you are recommending the page to knows that you wanted them to see it, and that it is not junk mail. We do not capture any email address.

Enter multiple addresses on separate lines or separate them with commas. You can only email up to 10 recipients
Practice as Befits You
(Your Name) has forwarded a page to you from Reality Sandwich
(Your Name) thought you would like to see this page from the Reality Sandwich web site.

buddhadasa

this is getting really good. right now i'm reading a book about buddhadasa, who spent a good chunk of the 20th century trying to reform thai buddhism into something that wasn't all empty ritual and focused on more on experiential insight. just set that book down in fact and then checked the Sandwich and here's the other side of the coin. thank you, synchronicity. anyway great writing, can't wait for part 4.

Adrian is a drone!

Your story is very interesting.  I'm looking forward to the next part!
Picture of <em>Jonathan Phillips</em>

Thanks Andrew, I've been

Thanks Andrew, I've been laughing the whole way through these, matching my own difficulties of maintaining a practice with yours. Who knew "Spiritual Boot Camp" would be such a challenge. Glad you put these stories into writing.

Give me a break

It's true there are some teachers out there who lack real insight. As a result, there are methodologies that don't work - either because they're antiquated, culture-specific, etc. But, what you have to keep in mind is that you are utlimately responsibe for yourself. Some guru/abbot isn't responsible for saving you. In your relationship to your own spirituality and consciousness, you're acting like a fat american tourist looking for a McDonalds in a Thai monastery. Very immature. You're not happy, because you hate yourself. You hate yourself, because you don't feel your own self-worth. You don't feel your own self-worth, because you don't know who you really are. This self-loathing post is just further ego-aggrandizement. As a buddhist priest and teacher, the most compassionate thing I can say to you is - shut up, get real, and take responsibility for yourself. If you don't, you'll be this miserable your entire life.

mind field

I am taken with your storytelling and reading the segments aloud to my husband. You present your experiences with a genuineness about wanting to grow, but not relinquishing discernment. I rented a guest house in a town in the mountains near Albuquerque for a  month to be quiet, read, enjoy nature and practice some ritual. Luckily I got very sick upon arriving--it enforced a certain silence upon me. I rode on that silence for a couple of weeks and then the relative isolation was difficult to take. I read a "Tibetan Book of the Dead" while there and was fascinated by the thought of being a disembodied mind (or soul, or karmic pattern) without the familiar constructs of my present life to lean on.
Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

get real

hmmm...but obviously the Q-estion follows,

what then is real? how do we deal with all the real?

let alone get it? AH So!

 

reminds me of that stuff called EST back in the early days

the final product of which was...DO YOU GET IT?!!!

and then of course, you could take primal scream therapy, and let it all hang out, until the crows come home to roost and then you can sit still in silence for ten thousand kalpas, until you get your voice back.

 

as i blow smoke out of my behind....or yours.

but seriously, chop chop, wash yer bowl, and sweep the temple steps, and when you are done grasshopper,

meditate on getting REAL!

(obviously this meditation practice is like sitting and looking at a point on the wall in the middle of cosmic nothingness)...which is expanding waves within waves in concentric circles moving ever outward and inward in the infinite pulse of life force.)()(

Thanks cjmoore

Thanks for the post gramps,

EST, Primal Scream (whatever that is), were well before my time. That's your generation's (and personal) baggage.

 "get real" is a phrase, with a totally different meaning if the words are seperated. An apparantly clever guy like you shouldn't get confused with semantics.

chop wood, carry water. what century do your preconceptions live in?

"(obviously this meditation practice is like sitting and looking at a point on the wall in the middle of cosmic nothingness)...which is expanding waves within waves in concentric circles moving ever outward and inward in the infinite pulse of life force.)()( " ----This is an intellectualization, and not the experience itself. Go out and get the experience for yourself :)

Let's try and expand our views of compassion a little bit, realizing that what is truly compassionate in the end, is often not what appears to be immediately compassionate.

Giving an alcoholic a bottle, so that his hands stop shaking may be what is immediately compassionate, but not what is truly compassionate. We all have to suffer with our addictions, whether they are drugs, or thoughts, or emotions. Getting off of those addictions is painful. Getting off of the ego is painful.

Everyone who has read this post, who has commented (me too), knows this pain. But, just like any addiction, you've got to do the work yourself. There may be support groups (monasteries, etc.), and some may be better than others - some may even make your addiction worse. But, ultimately, you've got to do the work yourself.

What may appear to be a comforting word in the present, may make the journey that much harder in the end - because our journey is one of ego dependance, and comforting words may mean we never stand on our own feet. We may never see through our dependance on someone else's words for self-validation.

And in the end, only you can know what's right. You'll only know by looking into your own heart.

I love you all, and I truly know your pain. I hope this makes the previous post more understandable, even if it does make it less meaningful.

Andrew - best of luck. You're at the most exciting time of your practice - dealing with all of psycho-drama. You'll soon see through it.

cjmoore, please don't be spiritualy jaded. Open your heart. Look at what you can contribute, instead of what you can tear down.

Best of luck!

Hmmm.....

Hi Johnny,

There are many paths to personal freedom,to dismiss something out of hand and judge it negatively simply because you've never heard of it is arrogance based in ignorance.

Primal Therapy was pioneered by Dr Arthur Janov and groundbreaking for its time.Many of the bodywork and breathwork modalities such as Rebirthing,Bowen and other techniques you would be familiar with followed his discovery.

His seminal works are 'Anatomy of a Mental Illness' and 'The Primal Scream'.'Prisoners of Pain' was a 12 year study of hundreds of patients cross-checked by independent scientists.

I never particpated in an EST seminar,by the time I did the seminars they had evolved into 'The Forum' and other seminars you might be familiar with.I had tremendous personal shifts from these courses and so did many others I knew.Again, EST and other courses like it were groundbreaking at the time and continued to evolve and influence other modalities that we use today.

A generation's baggage?......no.....mistakes were made but so were advances in ways of being the generations that followed had the benefit of.

From where we are now its easy to look back and criticise that we never experienced.Instead I have developed a gratitude and respect for the pathways they opened for us in the face of an opposition we never had to deal with.

And 'chop wood,carry water' is a metaphor,not to be taken literally.

Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

yes, i could have gained from Primal Scream

but i was sitting in a group of people that were learning how to use " Creative Conflict" and the technique may well have become the "Nuclear Evolution" (the name of the book)that it was theoretically suppose to become.While others were punching pillows in groups and some were screaming the primal, i was sitting on the "Hot seat" being torn down by the people in the electric gated city of Zardoz, my pun and metaphor, for the scene in the movie, that reminds me of what i exprienced, (if you ever see or saw that movie, it ends with Beethoven's 5th symphony and the hero "evolving".

Primal therapy....

dug the theory, didnt get the practice....too young, never felt safe enough to drop into a baseline primal...ah well.

EST tho....it had morphed into Landmark Education and the Forum when I did it.....before it went too corporate.....that seminar!....I was painfully shy, couldn't get me on a dancefloor for love nor money....three months after doing it I was performing in front of six thousand people and strutting the catwalk for Akira Isogawa. Thank you,Werner!

And the movie is?......Clockwork Orange?

Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

Zardoz the movie with Sean Connery

funny about EST, i just recall the thing about people, "getting it" i was playing on the " get real" thing.Too bad, it went too corpoate, i think a lot of people "got it" before it went... Ah so, so you are a model, of...of.... Akira.The plot deepens....

 

but Clockwork Orange...followed by Oh Lucky Man.With Malcolm MaDowel, who also played Caligula.

Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

wel i did not read beyond

the bad vibe of "YOUR PERSONAL BAGGAGE" because well, GET REAL!

cuz you know the get real guy has no "PERSONAL BAGGAGE"

 

another catch phrase, that well can be used as a put down.

and i personaly, well, lets just say, never used that Gucci Baggage.

its the REAL THING!

also i would add, that saying or shouting at someone, "GET REAL" is a meaningless semantic dul de sac, in that

it implies that that one is more REal then the other, which begins a game of one up manship.

where as the phrase , say BE HERE NOW, is never a dead end phrase,

even so, it could be also be said BE HERE NOW AND THEN.

i think there is a kind of Zen slap phrase like saying, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!

but that could also imply that you may or may not drink the coffee, and so on.

 

and then you can smell the flowers, but can't drink them, well you could make rose water, and flower essence, but

that only shows the endless blossom of the LOTUS.

 

let's slow down a little

Hey monkeyblood,

no disrespect was intended in regards to EST or Primal Therapy. If it works, wonderful. There are as many roads as there are people.

That also goes for all religions, all new psychotherapy modalities. They're neither right nor wrong.  The more the merrier, and hopefully they all work for the people who follow them. I was responding to cjmoore, who was trying to draw negative connections with what I had earlier said, and EST and primal therapy, and was himself, actually putting them in a negative light by drawing these comparissons.

CJ...C'mon man, what's up with the assumptions? I never said I didn't have any baggage. If I didn't have any baggage I'd be dead. That goes for the Dalai Llama, too. We're all people, plain and simple. You're making some pretty big leaps here.

Where's all this anger and reactivity coming from?

I asked you before to open your heart. Also, how is this line of conversation really helping anybody?

Shouldn't we be more constructive? Isn't it, on a relative level, more important how we can grow as a society.

How can we all come together collectively, with all of our seperate spiritual paths eventually blending into one singular spiritual manifestation? How are we going to live as a people if we don't?

If what you really want to do is banter bad poetry, or argue personal philosophy, then let's take this off line, where other people don't have to suffer through reading it. 

hopefully, you don't. and if you don't, let's have a real conversation.

Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

its called projecting your version of "get real"

and reading into my creative response, its a mirror really, one thing i learned in "creative conflict" my intuitive artistic natural nature, is to reflect back through use of subtle placed example.I actually could go right to the core of it, but i sort of let the chips fall awhile, to see where the intrest lays.

therefore the"get real" gets more real as we speak, see how that parallel sticks?

after all, if you can fling "get real" "shut up"and "take responsibility" at the guy that wrote this story about his meditation experience in the Buddhist temple, i suppose you can also, get real or unreal or surreal for a moment, to cross check your technique.

it goes with the going around.

, i am going very slow on this, because well, i'm enjoying it.However i do tend to have a quick mirror.After all this is a writing forum, is it not?It is like doing mime, and there is a difference in that and the kind of fast koan game.

i know all that jazz about addictions, by the way.

but i never really thought that meditation was a 12 step.

maybe a 2 step. but for real.I recall a "guru" that taught meditation, and wrote 'Creative Conflict' tell a woman that had traveled hundreds of miles to hear him speak, after she spoke about her experiences for a bit, that everything she was saying was something like "poppycock" i did not know at the time, if his words were fair to her, or not.

but, i don't think "getting real" is a lightening path enlightenment, or a one shoe fits all zen slap koan.

well maybe!!! you might be the vehicle for such a moment of awakening.

but then again, who is to say?

oh and please stop projecting, "anger" at me as if it is some forgone conclusion that it is I, that is the angry one,

seems a bit like not taking your own heat, or the nuance of telling someone to "get real" seems like anger to me.I mean if you can say, say, "look at the butterfly, and get real" it has a different quality, the ego doesn't need constant bashing, unless maybe your teaching samuri sword or something.And even then its about honesty and respect.And giving SLAAAAAAAACK, where slack is due.

and one more thing, telling someone that their poetry is bad,because you can't write poetry, really shows how real you are.As if using poetic intelligence is some how inferior to your GOT REAL.

sounds angy to me.I have a suggestion try opening your poetic will to art, then maybe flinging "open your heart" at people after you inpugn people about their style of writing, maybe, then you will get heart FOR REAL!

Dichotomy

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for being so civil in your reply,I was surprised because you can be so fiery.

The thing is, I did notice CJ put a negative slant on Primal and EST, etc but I didnt mind because I felt he had a right to as he had lived through the time when these modalities were at their height of fashionability which tends to bring out the worst of anything as well as the best.

You know what McKenna said about fashion and what it can do to something.I agree with that.

I believe that the fashionable\unfashionable dichotomy is a pernicious agent of divisiveness in our community and creates a harmful separation between us,preventing the full unity we all desire.

Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

actually my slant

was rather not too concerned with EST, just that est seemed to mirror some kind of new age transition, at that point.And i play on all slants equally, and the sort of ironic 'Do YOU GET IT" thing, at the time that was going around i was getting it from a another direction completely.On another note, this was at the tail end of the Vietnam war and all the people that had been brought together to Q-estion authority and march in the streets, that energy that was gettin it.

i also missed out on Primal scream, but i met someone that told me about his screaming adventures, i was doing a lot of my own screaming through my psyche, feeling the world crumple as the bombs fell on Cambodia, and those screams echod in Apocalypse Now a few years later as the Jim Morrison song The END, silent scream..."this the end, beautiful friend"

as a poet, and i am a poet, i view all mass group movements like EST, at that time as a possible deflection from the anti-war movement and the groups that were trying to end that war, and focus issues of resistance to the world that has come since i resisted, and others now are finding ways to keep "getting it".Yes there was a dicotomy, people wanting to go within, as another way to continue a revolution, that had been the face of the 60's, my own readings of Alan Watts whom Werner Erhard claimed influence from, were like a life saver, so i got that.But at the same time i was reading people like William Burroughs, and i got a lot from that also.But EST was not part of my scene, that was more about people with upward mobility.I was more like a street poet.

no mirror for dust to land on - right?

Wonderful! thanks for opening up.

Of course, we all have mirrors, and we are all just playing parts. There is no teacher, and there is no student. And of course I mirrored Andrew, as well. Not in a like meets like way, but in a like meets exact unlike way. But, to same effect.

After all, we're all here to mature, and that definetely does take looking in the mirror...for you and me both.

And it has everything to do with intention - which is inseperable from what we percieve to be the need of the moment.

But, let's not forget we're human beings, as well. Which means we are emotionally invested in this story, if only a little - Just as you bait me, I bait you, with "supposed" anger. And in this role, you're "supposed" to be the rightous one to put me in my place. And I appreciate it, because I understand your role in this way. There could not be one-upmanship, because we're the same dynamic.

And really, in the end, there is only harmony, in this little forum, and in all places, as we balance one another.

You see how we both, together, express this absolute unity?

By all means, if you think that giving slack is the most compassionate thing to do, then give slack. If you think that accountability is the most compassionate, then hold someone accountable. But, always, the intention should be compassion. And because it is, keep your own mirror blind to judgment and condescention. Keep it clean.

In the end, we all post here to make ourselves vulnerable. You, me, Andrew. Andrew posted here, and part of that is about opening to input and criticism.

Andrew's fine, and he always was. He has enough support from all of the other posts. But, it's valuable to present that other side, as well, considering that we have such a hard time dealing with it in our society.  (and I'm sure he can stick up for himself)

I quite enjoyed the dialogue. Although, I must say, I'm glad it didn't carry on in the same manor for very long. It goes without saying, don't take it personally.

Blessings!

Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

emm hmmm,

but really...the mirror that says..."get real" needs to...

shatter its preconceptions, of what that is.

and since i am the one to use the mirror example, frankly i did not see that happen.

just damage control, on the reflections, as if who keeps turing the reflections around like a mirror coin, has the last word.

 

not

 

i did see some of the usual waffling though.

Of course there's nothing

Of course there's nothing "real", and nothing to "get". The obviousness shouldn't be lost to anyone reading this post, and so, why even state it? It does nothing more than create ironic confusion as one intellectually tries to understand, "what did ne mean?" Did he really trap himself? Or did he trap the people fixating upon it?

The mirror example isn't "yours". Who is there to own any"thing"? At the very least, you certainly didn't invent it, so don't think yourself so clever. But, it's interesting to see how you are stuck in your position.

It's interesting that you choose the position of self-rightousness, being right, doing damage control, claiming intellectual superiority,etc. Think these things if you like, but in the end, it's just a grasping at a "position". It's just being stuck in a particular state of mind.

And see how you seperate yourself in doing so? How is that mature understanding?

Yes, you are an easy read, and yes, I did set you up.

So, be right if you like. And if later you choose, be free - and let it all go.

Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

take it easy

we are letting it go, and choosing to be free, and opening the heart, and getting real, and all that. have a nice day

and too all you that have a crappy meditation practice,

here is the rub, if you read enough, empty phrases like the above, after awhile your mind will be so dull, that meditation will become second nature by default.

and the pilgrimage to nowhere, will not be in Kansas no moe.

he he. you're absolutely

he he. you're absolutely "right". Even as you let go of being "right", you're "right".

I simply adore your cynicism. I'd expect somebody who's got it all figured out to have a hint of joy come out once in a while. I guess it's lost in buddhist nihilism. A little lost in the absolute, are we? or, at least our conception of it?

But, hey, you're "right". And I hope you can look back to all of the situations in your life when you were "right", and you can say, "yes, being "right" really served me well. this little arbitrary line in the sand is so useful."

But, I'd hate to be one of your loved ones who is "wrong". (how many people have you driven away because you're intolerabe? and "right"? the tone of your writing says you've got a great life, very happy)

I'd like to meet you in your next lifetime before you've dehumanized yourself - maybe then we could actually have a conversation.

Thanks for playing along, you've confirmed all of my suspicions about you. just like a mouse to the cheese. and you thought I was a buddhist teacher. (although, it was fun playing the part) you, the great nihilist, should know those labels mean nothing. Oh, wait, one label does, it's "right."

say whatever you like buddy, I won't be around to waste my time reading it. (That means you don't have to write any more wanna-be creative poetic trash. And oh my frickin God, don't get confused and think I'm angry or reactive, this has been the most delightfully amusing waste of time.)

I'm pulling off of this post because, you're "right", I'm "wrong".

and whereas you admittedly enjoyed going slow, I'm a little bored.

Way to go Tiger :)

Enough

......not another one who spews invective as well as personal insult and deliberately baits people to get a rise out of them in order to delightfully amuse themselves while not only wasting their time but that of others.

And then hypocritically wishes we all had compassion and loved each other unconditionally and bemoans the fact others are spiritually jaded or nihilistic.

All this while lying about being a buddhist teacher in order to give themselves an authority they never possessed.Then to top it off by crowing about how clever they were in their deceit and how stupid you were to pay them the privilege of taking them at face value.

Oh,this is really going to all work out........

Picture of <em>cjmoore</em>

bored

is really the whole of my response, to your writing, you mirrored that well, in one word.

sorry but i really need more insight, and less pontificating.

this is a writing forum after all.And i am a writer, you know the guy that you are trying to write stuff too?

hey andrew just wanted to

hey andrew just wanted to extend my best wishes to you. i know exactly where you are, I've been there before. I know what the frustration, apathy, pain, desperation.

Of course, I knew a lot of people would be sending their sympathies and "yeah, it is hard, I know what you means"s. But, you deserve to hear all sides, you're absolutely worthy of that.

I had a teacher once who said the kindest words to me. he was the only person who could snap me out of malaise. It changed my life. they are the exact same words I said to you. 

How could i possibly spare you that kindness? You're putting yourself out there, on the line, doing the work. you absolutely deserve all of the different perspectives and advice you can get. and this is a view that no one else is going to give you.

I hope it's not been too harsh, but spirituality's not an easy thing. 

that being said. you're frickin' awesome. look at you, able and willing to go to the great unknown of your soul, enter into a completely different culture, a culture within a culture, in fact, while most people grow old only dreaming of it.

Give it all you've got man. go get what came for. don't hold back, everybody's supporting you. it's hard work, to be sure, but you're already there. you're so close.  I'm cheerin for you.  And when you know, come back and share with those who need.

You're a rock star! saving the world one being at a time.

Picture of <em>atomic elroy</em>

thought without thinker



I see a set-up brewing...

 

unfortunate how some use these comments for their own pathetic agenda. But I guess the web begets that. so it goes.