Modern Day Mythology: A Talk with James Curcio

Philadelphia-based writer James Curcio's novels resemble strange and intricate life stories, bubbles of fiction floating in the depths of the collective subconscious. Occasionally they rise to the surface and burst into the conscious mind, releasing dreamscapes where fantasy merges with the mundane. Demigods cavort with goth-punk teenagers. Ambivalent authority figures lord over underground networks. Pseudo-shamanic rituals and sex magick abound.

In his 2004 book Join My Cult!, Curcio tells of a group of disillusioned teenagers whose rites of passage include experiments with sex and drugs, dabblings in dark magick, and associations with a mysterious organization known as the “Mother Hive Brain Syndicate.” Described as an occult novel, the story takes place across simultaneous “reality grids,” wherein a single character can inhabit multiple identities.

When dealing with subjects like the occult, shamanism, and ritual magick, part of the process involves investigating hidden dimensions of reality that may prove difficult to depict with words. Curcio agrees, noting that “occult” translates to “hidden,” and such realms must be experienced personally to be truly understood. Here he talks about the paradox in expressing the ineffable, the downsides to guru-hood, and the potency of the archetypal world.

Image: Cover of Join My Cult!

TG: I was first introduced to your work through Join My Cult! In certain parts this story feels very magical, even archetypal. What were your influences when writing this book?

JC: That's a rough one to start off with. I have to admit having moved past Join My Cult! quite a bit, both personally and I think in terms of how I write. It's hard for me to be unbiased about it. When you get too close to a project like that, you become your own worst critic. That's part of what inspires me to move right from one project to the next. But I'll try to push that aside for a moment.

The experiences behind that book were obviously based on my own rather unusual experience of adolescence. I was devouring all of this heady shit: Crowley, Neitzsche, Schopenhauer, Campbell, Jung. I read a lot more back then than I could possibly find the time for these days. But despite all that, I was still just this kind of “outsider” teenager, with adolescent emotions. So even though I had gone maybe a little past that when I was writing the book, I tried to get back into that headspace and re-construct the events of my adolescence from the inside of my head.

Those influences came from two places: From the people around me, who were actually a part of that inner world, and who in some cases actually contributed to the writing; and also from the writers I was talking about and the mental landscape they were creating in my head – even if they were speaking to me over a thousand year gap, from cultures halfway across the world.

I was reading Lao Tzu and Heinlein during homeroom when everyone else was saying the Pledge of Allegiance. At the same time I want to make it very clear that I was just as mature as everyone else around me (which is to say, probably not that much.) I intellectually understood a great deal of what I was reading, but I really didn't have the life experience to utilize it. So it was all role-play and rhetoric, you know? A lot of occultists, by the way, never leave that stage.

This leads to a question that I personally find very fascinating: What is the interplay between fiction and reality? How do you view the relationship between reality and art? I've heard that many of the events in Join My Cult! actually happened. Is this true?

Yeah. Like I said, it depends on what a person means when they say "actually happened." If you mean “happened as a fact,” then yes – a fair number of the events in Join My Cult! happened. But they were mythologized. So what's that mean, right? Well, for example, I spent a brief period of time at a mental hospital when I was 16. And I went in there for the same reasons that my character Alexi did. But when I got out, I obviously didn't die. So I start the novel with Alexi getting out of the hospital, and then dying, right? That was that part of myself dying as I started to write the book. Then the rest of the book, or one thread of it, goes through what led up to Alexi going to the hospital in the first place.

Like the weird labyrinth of our fading memories, it isn't all necessarily in the order that it happened. An element of one character may bleed over into another. You know how you might retell a story to someone, and a friend of yours who is present in the story is also at the retelling? And you might retell them doing something when really it was you, or vice versa? A lot of it is like that. Or how, in a dream, some sort of stereotypical or archetypal part of yourself becomes a character separate from you? It’s as if you have different aspects of yourself interacting with one another.

For instance, there's a section in my book where Neitzsche just wheels himself into a Denny's tand starts up with his bombastic, incredibly critical rhetoric. Of course, Neitzsche didn't actually find a time machine and roll his syphilitic, Teutonic ass into Denny's. That monologue was going on inside my head. And the book happened inside my head. So in the book, he's just walking around in there like everyone else.

If people could understand how something like that can be real, yet at the same time not, maybe they’d stop shooting each other over whose God is the “one true God.” I know that's probably asking too much.

Anyway, to try to answer your question: Everything in Join My Cult! actually happened in my head, but only a fraction of it is factually true. All of my art is sculpted out of the things I experience, the people I meet. So there's no clear distinction between "reality" and "art." And let's not get into what "reality" is.

You address this discussion to some extent in your essay "Living the Myth," which appeared in the Generation Hex anthology. How is mythology important today? Can modern people relate mythological stories to their own lives?

I think that's what art is, for those so inclined. It's not just something you do because you think it looks pretty, or looks awful, for that matter. The importance of mythology right now is the same as it's always been: To unravel ourselves and each other; to reflect on the things that happen to us and give them meaning; or to change their meaning, strip them of meaning, so you can keep on living with yourself. The very first pieces of art that we find, and the first signs of human consciousness, are religious. Cave paintings, bone arrangements. I think there's something to that. And in many ways, our psychological needs haven't changed a whole lot in the past fifty thousand years, even if many other things have.

Image: A page from the Chasing the Wish comic.

In both “Join My Cult!” and your forthcoming novel, Fallen Nation: Babylon Burning, you present characters modeled on mythological figures alongside depictions of regular people. What are you trying to reveal by integrating mythology and mundane life?

The characters portrayed in different myths are what Jung referred to as archetypical characters. That is, they're a certain personality, a certain energy, that pops up again and again throughout different cultures and ages. Dionysus appears in one place, then Bacchus in another, and then Zagruess, and so on. They wear different clothes, and the character changes somewhat from incarnation to incarnation, but it's a basic, elemental personality. And we all have those things in our lives, in our dreams and fantasies. We think of these things now as concrete, unchangeable forms, but they were simply characters in stories that were passed from one group to another. Each individual adds their own spin on how the characters appear, but there's this interesting fact behind that: There's a personality there that seems to remain constant – no matter where, no matter when.

I honestly don't see these characters as standing side-by-side with mundane life, though. What I mean to say is, there is no mundane and supernatural dichotomy. It's all just experience.

The mythological figure Choronzon, who appears in both books, particularly engages me. If I may, I'd like to provide some historical context about this character, and then perhaps you can explain how you envision him.

Sure.

Choronzon first appears in the sixteenth century as the serpent of the Garden of Eden referenced in John Dee’s work on Enochian magick. He is represented by the number 333 and has been referred to as the “Lord of Hallucinations” and the “Dweller in the Abyss.” You have called him a “guardian.” Choronzon may manifest as a hulking behemoth or as an annoying gnat. Sometimes he will appear as a host of demons with many bodies and voices.

Famed occultist Aleister Crowley later incorporated Choronzon into his own magickal system of Thelema. If I understand correctly, the idea in Thelemite magick is that Choronzon is the final obstacle on the path of the occult. If you approach Choronzon with the right mindset and proper preparation, he will destroy your limited ego and free you from the “Abyss” of the occult world – and from the world of subjective/objective distinctions. Is this correct?

I'd say he's a guard, not a guardian. The idea is that if you aren't ready for what lies beyond attachment to yourself, to your limited sphere of experience, he'll terrify the bejeezus out of you and possibly drive you insane. I don't know if the character I created is the same entity that Crowley dealt with, but there seems to be an overlap. To me, it was a synthesis of my grandfather (who was an alternately kind and very hostile man) and this specter I saw in the woods when I was younger. When he comes up in the dream sequences in the novels, his role is to test, but he appears to the protagonist as my grandfather before his real nature is revealed. So with me, he's a character that has this sense of being a teacher, but he's not above fucking with your mind in the process. If you can hang, then you come out on the other side.

Image: The character Kali in Fas Ferox.

I see a parallel between Choronzon and the goddess Kali in Hindu mythology – the “Eater of Time” who destroys a person's ego, decapitating them metaphorically, in order for them to be liberated. This story also seems similar to the idea of practicing Mahayana Buddhism as a “vehicle” to cross the river of Samsara – the process of life and death – eventually reaching enlightenment on the other side.

There's a parallel between Choronzon and Kali in terms of that idea of breaking open the rocks to find the gold inside. But otherwise the nature of these two entities seems pretty different. For starters, Kali is the flipside of the coin of Durga. Both are Goddesses; they are very feminine. There's an idea in Buddhism of the duality of fear and desire – that it is these two things that keep us tied to Samsara, or Maya. Simply put, those two personifications of the mother image represent those two sides.

I also don't see Kali as guarding anything. At least, that's not been my experience with that energy. There is a connection between Kali and Crowley's Babalon, which I kind of re-typified in the character of Lilith in Fallen Nation. Kali is less sexualized, at least in a traditional sense, but they serve very similar psychological roles.

Along the lines of this relationship between art and reality, and the increasingly blurred distinction between the two, is another concept that you've been involved with called "Alternate Reality Gaming." Most people are by now familiar with gaming genres that were once curiosities, like MMORPGS (Massively Multi-Player Online Role Playing Games) and LARPS (Live-Action Role-Playing). However, the term "Alternate Reality Game" is still relatively new unknown in the mainstream.

Some major marketing firms are now tapping into this potential, as evidenced by the Halo 2 game "I Love Bees," the websites for the new Batman film "The Dark Knight," and the elaborate ARG/fictional narrative for the recent Nine Inch Nails album, Year Zero. Please explain the concept of Alternate Reality Gaming, and how it relates to Join My Cult!.

If Join My Cult! was part of an Alternate Reality Game, and the game was still on, do you think I'd be allowed to say so? Laughs. I'll say this much: It got me in touch with some of the pioneers of the medium. So, in a sense – and I'm not just being glib – everything I've gone on to do has been a continuation of that "game."

What is an ARG? I don't know. I'm sure my answer for this is going to differ from those really immersed in that subculture. Perhaps a Wikipedia entry or something would cover that better. But from where I'm standing, I think the future of ARGs isn't in the puzzle games: it's in the actual integration of media with our lives.

Developing hooks to get people invested in a "fictional" character, and giving them puzzles to work through to "help" that character with his or her problem, is one step, but I think the really interesting thing for me has been actually integrating my work and my life as intimately as possible. The rest will work itself out, probably with a more interesting composition than I could have planned.

And there are some people out there who have been following the story. I guess if the Internet has given us anything good, it's that connectivity. I know, and even collaborate and work with, people all over the world, many of whom I've never met before in person. At what other point in the history of humankind has this been possible?

You are something of a renaissance man; you've worn the hats of a writer, musician, graphic designer, philosopher, art director, and occult guru of sorts. What projects have you been involved with recently?

Christ, that “occult guru” thing is funny. Back when I was really a kid, I'm sure there was a part of me that wanted to be that. And then a decade or so later all these people were starting to buy into that myth, and by that time it was like, "Dear God, stay away from me!" That cliché is really true: Communication can only happen between equals. I've heard stories from some of my friends who have gained real or pseudo-celebrity, and most of them have stories about these people showing their true colors as psychotic sycophants – so that scares me. I don't want people camped out on my front lawn with shotguns and copies of The Book of The Law … or Join My Cult!, even worse!

I’m spending a lot of time lately working for Alterati.com as senior editor. Alterati is kind of a digital nexus point for emergent cultures. I know that sounds really highbrow. You can go there and get introduced to a new filmmaker or musician, or artist or technology, each day on the blog. You can go to Altertube and put up your own work, which of course we may wind up featuring. You can up- or download torrents. We've only just recently gone live, and it's already starting to pick up. Hopefully more people will catch what we're on to and contribute to it. With the glut of content on the net, now more than ever there is a need for trusted filters to say, “Check this out!”

I'm also kicking Mythos Media into the world this summer, in its infant incarnation. We will be publishing media in a variety of forms. Given the name and what I've said already, you can probably imagine what kind of subject matter will be the binding glue. In the next months, Mythos Media will be releasing the illustrated novel I've been writing, Fallen Nation: Babylon Burning, and two albums: subQtaneous, and Veil of Thorns’ “Cognitive Dissonance.” We also have quite a few other projects that are in development behind them, including comics like Fas Ferox Episode 1 and Geist.

Image: Cover of Fas Ferox: World Walkthrough.

I’m really excited about some upcoming projects in development, but I can't talk about them yet. The initial stuff will be available online through sites like Amazon.com, or you can get them directly if you happen to catch us at San Diego’s ComicCon or Esozone. As things progress, we'll be getting distribution in stores as well.

I'm also in early discussion with Invictus Films about co-writing and producing a movie called “Threads.” The idea is a black comedy – kind of a goth punk take on “Heathers.” Normally I wouldn't mention projects this early, because a lot of them fall through, but my plan is to document the production (or non-production) of “Threads” through Alterati. This will start perhaps by August, supposing I don’t have an aneurysm by then. That's also very likely.

How do you feel about the current state of politics and social organization in the world, and how do those feelings affect your art?

God, I don't know how to sum that up succinctly.

Ok – If I asked a Magic 8-Ball this question (I mean a real one, that would always answer correctly, if epigrammatically) and shook it, it would probably say, "The prognosis is not good … but there's hope.”

And when it really comes down to it, we're all going to die, right? I just wish I saw more simple kindness out there in the world. It's really not hard. And it's not weakness to be kind. If it were weakness, most people would be doing it. I don't mean I'm confused that everyone isn't Mother Theresa – that level of self-abnegation for others confounds me. But simple kindness costs nothing, and would make the world a much more pleasant place to live.

Can you elaborate on that? What is the usefulness of “simple kindness”? Do you think that daily interactions between people can shift reality and affect the political situation in the world?

It all comes down to the day-to-day interactions of individuals, doesn't it? I mean, if everyone stopped buying gas for a week, the entire oil industry would fall apart. Maybe then alternatives would be taken more seriously. Or maybe more likely, it would turn into a chaotic nightmare.

But either way, everyone says, "I have to go to work tomorrow." We keep to the general status quo because the alternative is too damn hard unless it's forced on us. But I'm not sure what keeps people from simple kindness and graciousness on a social level. It seems kind of self apparent that everything we do as humans, no matter how large, comes down to the action of individuals. This has been the major contribution of the West to human civilization. Of course, we're dealing with the baggage of that now, too: Hubris.

As for creating reality, the way I see it as more of a co-creation. Our creation of reality depends in large part upon the stories other people are living, and how they impact us. And they are also co-created based on a simple roll of the dice. I'm not one of these New Age people who think that if you get run over by a bus and lose your legs, some “higher power” is trying to teach you a lesson. I mean, what kind of fucked up higher power would willfully do that? But I do think that there are different ways that we can react to that sort of thing happening – different stories we can live, if you want to think of it that way.

Image: Album cover of Babalon.

Your new novel, Fallen Nation: Babylon Burning (which I am honored to be involved with as a contributing writer and editor) is based loosely on your experiences in the 90s touring with the industrial rock/occult band Babalon. What were those days like? Also, how do you view the concept of "Babylon" in modern times?

The simplest definition I have for "Babalon" is it's the most leonine, sexual, feminine energy there is. It's a feminine personality, a feminine energy, but it's driven somewhat mad with lust. She's fickle, and most importantly, she'll break you before she's through with you. I think that's really the central part of it; you can fight it or you can go along with it. Either way, you're going to get broken if you stick by her side. But if you just let go, you can actually come back whole. If you fight it, though, she makes no promises. That's the similarity we were talking about, between Kali, Choronzon, and Babalon.

The actual, factual band Babalon was only in operation for three years or so, from 2000 to 2003. The music, the concept of the band, and some of what happened during it all was a springboard for me to write about the fictional band Babalon in the novel. But I don't want people to start looking for a one-to-one correlation between the people and events in the story and real life, because there isn't one.

The band went through several incarnations, although Sarah, Scott and I were a constant. It started out a studio project. Then Sarah and I moved several thousand miles to join with Scott, and we tried to make it a live project as well. We’d really just started to catch our stride musically when personal issues broke us up.

I mean, in retrospect, if you're going to give this magick nonsense credence, what else should you expect when invoking the Whore? I wonder about that a little with Jack Parsons sometimes. What did he really expect his Antichrist child to be? Did he think Babalon would show up and offer tea and crumpets?

It's also kind of funny, just playing along with this idea that you can call up these archetypal entities with music. It was only after that entity "broke" each of us that we were each individually able to really start accessing our personal potential. I haven't kept in touch with Sarah, but I know Scott's musical career has really been taking off. Last I heard, he's recording an album right now with Mankind is Obsolete, working with Sylvia Massy (the producer who did Tool's Opiate and Undertow). He's also worked a lot with Collide, who not-so-coincidentally have ties with Tool as well. We still collaborate on projects, though not as often as we used to.

As for my own career, well ... I've struggled through a hell of a lot of personal stuff trying to finance this nightmare, but things have really been coming together for me lately. I hope it continues. I have a lot in me, if circumstances sustain it.

And finally, how do you feel about the current status of the occult scene? Is this subculture still vital, or in decline? What do you think attracts people to this lifestyle?

I can't suspend my disbelief enough to talk about the occult scene without some amount of hostility. Don't get me wrong, I have met a lot of really fabulous people through those kinds of circles. But the scenes themselves – they're all black holes. The same thing is true with goth culture, or punk culture or emo culture. The occult is no different. They just have different things that they consider cool. I honestly could give a fuck. I have work to do. And I think that's the real cause of my hostility.

Crowley ostensibly re-birthed Western Occultism in the twentieth century. And the basic premise of that system, as I take it, is “non serviam”: Serve no one. Will, and Work. He even bothers to capitalize them. Yet so many Occultists (oftentimes the Thelemites are the worst of all worst of all) serve a social order. They spend all of their time talking about "practicing magick" and pouring over these arcane codices, while the rest of us are living our lives.

The real magicians are working in science, in cybernetics; they're painting or in recording studios. They're having sex, learning Tantra, and backpacking through the Himalayas. They're not still studying Enochian in their parents’ basements and starting endless arguments about which sect of the OTO is "best. Yes, many of us have to go through those awkward phases – and if you're 18 and that's where you are at, more power to you! There's a crazy world ahead. But like I was saying about Join My Cult! – we all have to go through an adolescence, for better or worse. But some of us grow up, too.

The occult is just a set of training wheels that might allow you to actually pursue and achieve your potential. It's also called the “occult” for a reason. People should really stop talking about it so much.

Fallen Nation: Babylon Burning will be available through Mythos Media and Amazon.com in late July 2007. You can sign up at www.mythosmedia.net to be notified of its release.

James Curcio keeps his blog at http://joinmycult.blogspot.com/