Karmic Dynamics: Self-Transformation as Service to the Cosmos
The converging crises of the present can be thought of as the fruition of karmic seeds planted into the soil of history; contemporary conditions are rooted in the deeds of the past. It seems that the problem we humans face today -universal death and destruction - has been generated by subtle elements embedded within the fundamental socio-cultural structures of civilization that infect individual souls with negatively oriented cognitive and volitional patternings. But an awareness is arising amongst civilizationally affected individuals recognizing that when a collective way of existing in the world is predicated upon an exponentially increasing unilateral extraction and consumption of resources, the structures generating and supporting this mode of being are destined for an eventual collapse. The colloquialism "Don't shit where you eat" comes to mind. When "natural" sources of sustenance and nourishment are related to in such a dominant, abusive, and unconscious manner, these complex systems of living beings will ultimately crumble under such extreme pressure. Once the living systems of Earth begin to collapse, every human construct that is unappreciatively dependent upon them for sustenance will not take too long to follow.
Consumer culture, predicated upon an unconscious inculcation of subtle ideas transmitted from the collective to the individual, subtly inculcates us with a naïve worldview. Based upon materialism and dualism, the mainstream worldviews of Euro-American culture generate a mode of consciousness that is simply not adequate to face the present challenges we face as a planetary whole. Philosophically, consumer culture, rooted in scientific materialism, suggests that sense perceptions are comprised of an influx of randomly occurring phenomena that possess no inherent value or meaning and that human cognition is merely an arbitrary, subjectively constructed projection of coherence between these empty sense perceptions. Such an implicit notion implies an irreconcilable mutual exclusivity between perception and cognition. Such a worldview suggests that humans, beings whose knowledge is limited, can speculate and make assumptions about reality but never perceive its true nature. In other words, materialistic/dualistic worldviews suggest that human cognition is unable to perceive the archetypal foundations of existence, the Wisdom underlying reality. Because of this obscured perception, which results in a retreat from an embedded understanding of the world and a lack of respect for nature, the idea that there is only “stuff” to be chopped up, traded, and consumed has become the prevailing impulse of Western civilization, with plunder, rape, and pillage as its logical outcome.
Regarding the world as merely or nothing but a randomly occurring collision of objects limits the perception of complexity and depth. The reason that such views are called “reductionist” is because they actually reduce the scope of the individual’s consciousness, restricting perception and cognition to the grossest aspects of phenomena. Thinking that is focused solely on quantitative sensory information, discounting all qualitative aspects as subjective projections and removing the perceiver from the field of knowledge, is necessarily materialistic and dualistic and therefore, problematic.
As an absolute ontological statement about the quality of thinking itself, materialism/dualism fails to recognize a fact put forth by transformative esoteric traditions throughout history: thinking can be transformed through training and discipline into a “higher” organ of perception. Rudolf Steiner, in his Ph.D. work on Goethe’s scientific writings, articulates:
“Thinking… is no more and no less an organ of perception than the eye or ear. Just as the eye perceives colours and the ear sounds, so thinking perceives ideas.”
Such a conception about what cognition actually is suggests nothing less than that the human psyche is potentially an instrument which activates the human capacity to “see through the veil of phenomena” to the dynamic play of archetypal forms. However, the actualization of this ideal cognitive state depends solely on the consciously directed will of the individual. In this way, the human being cultivates the capacity to perceive and cognize the Wisdom of the Cosmos.
This perspective can be considered an "integral" worldview, which acts as a counteracting impulse, an antidote, to the detrimental and destructive conditioning that is the modern human’s birthright. An integral worldview suggests that the inherent meaning or value embedded in sense perceptions, the Wisdom informing or underlying phenomena, is obscured by ignorant and delusional projections. Such a worldview, elucidated in ancient Greece by Plato, in modern Europe by Goethe, Rudolf Steiner and Carl Jung, and in countless other times and locations by many unnamed (r)evolutionaries, points to the necessity of an individual evolution of consciousness that must occur in order for a collective transcendence of and liberation from the limitations imposed by the psycho-socio-cultural conditions of civilization to be catalyzed.
Generating a “disenchanted” worldview, modern industrial civilization renders the subtle depth, complexity, and nuance of reality imperceptible, i.e., unconscious. The only way to “re-enchant” sense perceptions is through the cultivation of a participatory epistemology (i.e. consciously cultivating a way of knowing the Cosmos) that transmutes the aforementioned dualistically separated relationship of perception and cognition into one in which sensing, feeling, and thinking become mutually beneficial and harmoniously engaged, motivated by wonder, awe, surrender, receptivity, devotion, and love, teleologically oriented towards the goal of knowing the estranged other. Western esoteric traditions have called this process the hieros gamos, or sacred marriage, of self (cognition, perception, volition, etc.) and other (experienced phenomena, the meaning of phenomena, effects of volition on phenomena). Rudolf Steiner calls this process imagination to elucidate the supplementation/complementation of perception with cultivated knowledge, i.e. cognition. Such a way of being in the world generates an intimate, mutually beneficial and harmonious relationship between the Wisdom that is the human being and the Wisdom that is the rest of the world.
We, as beings who have the potential to become aware of the nuances and complexities of ourselves and our surround, exist in the flow and thus, as the flow of the apocalyptic process of bio-socio-cultural death and decay. When we recognize this transpersonal process as an integral aspect of psycho-social reality, we deal with its inner and outer dynamics consciously rather than being overwhelmed by them, impelled towards unconscious thinking and behavioral patternings. We are not separate from the process of death and destruction. In fact, we are inextricably linked to it. We embody its qualities while being embedded within it. There are inner and outer aspects to this process. It subtly saturates every aspect of our experiences in the world. However, it is precisely this mysterious intimacy between soul and society that affords us the opportunity to actually change the present circumstances.
The felt experience of civilization's explicit precariousness opens up the possibility for a perception of the true workings or inner dynamics of the military-industrial-media driven consumer capitalist system. The mechanisms of the matrix are unveiled for all who "have eyes to see" because they have become so blatantly erroneous; that is the esoteric meaning of Apocalypse. Our task is to integrate the cold, hard facts of modern existence so that we can begin to consciously engage in the process of psycho-societal transformation.
Recognizing the nature of the chaotic and precarious conditions I was born into, I remember thinking to myself as a child, "Since the world is flawed, and I exist within the world, then I must be flawed too." In other words, if the consumer capitalist mode of being is inherently destructive and detrimental and I am a product/member of that collective mode of being, then I carry within my psyche all of those flaws. Erich Neumann elucidates the relationship of individual psychological complexes to collective socio-cultural structures:
"An individual's shadow is invariably bound up with the collective shadow of his group, and as he digests his own evil, a fragment of the collectiveevil is invariably co-digested at the same time."[2]
Evil doesn't exist solely "out there" but also within the depths of my soul. The depth psychological perspective inaugurated by Jung points to an introjective approach to dealing with evil:
"If you imagine someone who is brave enoughto withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong, and they must be fought against. He lives in the "House of the Gathering." Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world. He has succeeded in shouldering at least an infinitesimal part of the gigantic, unsolved social problems of our day."[3]
I am a wounded microcosm, imprinted with destructive, self-serving cognitive and volitional programming. Therefore, to enter into a process of healing the system that inflicts soul wounds necessarily involves a self-motivated quest towards healing the wounds of one's own soul. As Jung points out when referring to thefuture "Aquarian" age:
"It will then no longer be possible to write off evil as the mere privation of good; its real existence will have to be recognized. This problem can be solved neither by philosophy, nor by economics, nor by politics, but only by the individual human being, via his experience of the living spirit..."[4]
Outer spiritual work begins with inner soul work; I cannot begin to manifest lasting changes into the world until I have sustained changes within myself. Matthew 7:3-5 elucidates the relationship between the inner and outer dynamics of healing:
Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.[5]
And, as Christ says in Luke 4:23 "Physician, heal thyself!" In other words, we as individuals are not acting with full capacity if we only look for the effects of the flawed system "out there". In doing so, we are dualistically projecting out of our inner wounds (the shadow, in Jungian terminology) onto external objects and events, unconsciously enacting detrimental cognitive and behavioral modalities that perpetuate a system oriented towards degradation and destruction of Earth.
Realizing that we as a society are sick, we naturally seek a cure. Spiritual antidotes and remedies for the effects of this exploitive, delusion-inducing system have been articulated and described by a whole cast of revolutionary individuals throughout SpaceTime. Rudolf Steiner and Carl Jung are two of them. Jung describes liberation from the inhibitive psychological effects of externally imposed socio-cultural systems as a process of "individuation". This is a path that involves self-development through consciously recognizing, engaging, and integrating the hidden wounded dimensions of the soul as an individual existentially differentiates from a collective. We undergo change through a process of encountering and re-membering, i.e. bringing to consciousness, aspects ofourselves that have been banished and buried deep within the recesses of "the unconscious". However, as the present planetary crises make apparent, individual psycho-spiritual death and rebirth, individuation, defeating the"evil" inside myself, etc., is only half the battle.
As Rudolf Steiner goes to great lengths to indicate, "evil" still exists outside in the world at large. He suggests that the evil "out there" generates the evil "in here"[6]. In other words, the informative influences of impulses manifesting from "malevolent" beings as destructive and inhibitive psycho-socio-cultural forms is the true nature of the supersensible phenomena pointed to by the concept"evil". If this is true, then people will continue to go on destroying, plundering, and raping regardless of how "enlightened" isolated individuals become.[7] Therefore, those who desire for positive change to come to fruition must band together, in order to birth new socio-cultural forms that are infused with love, engendering healing, health, and harmonious development and prosperity for the benefit of all beings.
The dynamics of the redemptory process of degeneration and regeneration embodied by the individuation process was elucidated by the Buddha millennia ago: desire and attachment leads to delusional ignorance brought about through suffering. Acting out of delusional ignorance has karmic consequences, generating what can be called “sin” and “error.” However, while obviously manifesting destructive effects, these seemingly negative phenomena provide us with the opportunity of working through or working out the karma we have wrought through an active engagement with it in time. This is a causal process that we recognize with the colloquialism: What goes around comes around. We must recognize that, as humans, our cognition, perception, and volition are impelled by certain “unconscious” factors, a state named by Christians as the “sinful” or “fallen” state.
Realizing my condition as a “wretched sinner” brings the complex dynamics of such to consciousness, opening up the possibility for engagement and ultimately, integration of the sin-generating shadow. This process of recognition, engagement, and integration is metanoia organically manifesting in the soul of the individual who realizes his/her sinful state. Living becomes a perpetual meditation that alchemically transforms one’s conditioning into a conscious reorientation towards healing, growth, and development. If societal reorientation is to be initiated, the process of metanoia must occur within individuals who then must collectivize to birth new socio-cultural forms. Recognizing that the depth and scope of one’s perception, cognition, and volition is limited and shaped by socio-cultural conditioning can catalyze a desire to deepen and expand one’s capacity and range of consciousness, a desire that can be actualized through the spiritual path.
Through transformative esoteric practices, e.g., contemplation of spiritual teachings and meditative concentration, the individual actively self-cultivates modalities of perception, cognition, and volition that are based on direct experience rather than passively receiving prepackaged modes from the collective. As the inner effects of these practices begin to manifest, as their spiritual content is digested or integrated into consciousness, thinking and feeling are transmuted into organs of archetypal perception, the spiritual eye and ear gradually flower open and are able to directly perceive and cognize the Wisdom embedded within and embodied as phenomena. This evolutionary process hinges upon a reconnection of human consciousness with the consciousness of the universe, each of which are manifestations of the being known as Sophia, the active, benevolent, generative Wisdom underlying and informing all cosmic phenomena. The connection to inner and outer Sophia was gradually severed by the delusional ignorance generated by the imperial patriarchy that is human history. The archetypal Wisdom behind or within subjective, internal phenomena (thoughts, emotions, behaviors, speech, feelings, etc.) and objective, external phenomena (perceptions through the “lower” and “higher” senses) has been rendered unconscious and unknown. We are unable to attribute adequate meaning to our perceptions. This is the essence of the disenchanted worldview.
As each of us brings our idiosyncratic conditioning, the inner affects of the imposition of the disenchanted worldview to consciousness, we grow in our capacity to manifest love, peace, and harmony into the world. This is the process of “knowing thyself,” as indicated long ago on the temple at Delphi in ancient Greece, and it points to self-knowledge as the prerequisite for other-knowledge. We must learn to perceive and cognize reality as it is, only then can we harmoniously embody and embed what Abrahamic traditions call the “will of God” in spacetime. But for this to occur, we must see ourselves as we are, as beings whose given ability to perceive and cognize reality is intrinsically inadequate due to ignorance and delusion generated by the violence and oppression of contemporary civilization. Only then will true redemption ensue.
New structures are born from the decaying remnants of the old. To catalyze this process in human history, we as individuals must cultivate the capacity of "culture hacking", learning to "see through" the various inner and outer aspects of the wound-producing socio-cultural matrix in order to zap the effects of its inhibiting forces with the truth-filled ray of spiritually informed consciousness. We must trace its historical development back to its origins so that we understand its inner nature as a counterfeit-reality generator.
"A true understanding of karma and destiny is the important development that must spread over the earth. It must take hold in legislation and in the formation of political parties; it must provide the very foundation of society." (Steiner - The Reappearance of Christin the Etheric, p. 232)
When we are able to perceive karma, to witness in the conditions of the present the spatio-temporally reverberating causes of the past, we are able to situate ourselves consciously in a stream of development oriented towards liberation of self and other from suffering. When we are able to re-cognize the rooted lineage of our perceptions, we become consciously aware of the complex, interpenetrating, interdependent web of intermingling beings and forces that comprise the activity present in the field of consciousness. If approached lovingly, reality becomes a teacher and friend, guiding our thoughts and behavior towards appropriate and adequate activities. Only when we understand the logic of history can we enter into it as conscious and positively efficacious beings so as to guide its unfoldment away from pain and torment, towards harmony and peace.
Consumer culture seems to feed off of behavior motivated by rigid thinking: the world "out there" has become a collection of discrete objects to be manipulated and exploited; the "things" comprising the world are conceived of as either are source or an asset, to be chopped up, used and/or owned. Rudolf Steiner called this quality of thinking "ahrimanic" to indicate the spiritual beings informing such phenomena. We become stuck in a mode of consciousness that is purposefully constructed and contrived into being by groups of people who seek to manipulate the human psyche to perpetuate the system that they feed solavishly and excessively off of. According to Steiner, these groups of people are not acting out of impulses that stem from their own being but instead their actions are directly inspired by spiritual beings whose aim it is to lord over human consciousness in order to establish control of Earth. In this passage from the Fifth Gospel, Rudolf Steiner articulates the nature of two classes of beings who act as "tempters" of humanity throughout history, Lucifer and Ahriman:
For the rest of Earth evolution, up to Vulcan, the higher hierarchies will not be able to drive Ahriman completely from the scene of their activities. It will never prove impossible to overcome inner temptation by Lucifer - the wishes, desires, passions, pride, arrogance and presumption that arise in us. If Lucifer attacks on his own, spiritual effort will overcome him. And if Lucifer and Ahriman attack together from inside a human being, spiritual means will again lead to victory. If, however, Ahriman comes by himself, he anchors his powers in the material processes of Earth evolution and he cannot be entirely removed from the scene. Ahriman, Mephistopheles, Mammon - these terms mean the same - is to be found in money, in everything connected with our natural egotism on Earth. Because human life must inevitably always have some external material aspects, human beings have to reckon with Ahriman. To give real help to humanity on Earth, the Christ had to allow Ahriman to have an influence. Ahriman, material nature, must be part of Earth evolution to its very end. The Christ had to accept that the struggle against Ahriman must continue until Earth evolution reaches its end.Ahriman had to remain. (p. 225, emphasis added)
The imposition of worldview from the powerful to the powerless is the essence of civilization itself, an essence colored by the qualities of Ahriman. Such dominance generates a dialectical struggle between individuals wishing to be free and the psycho-socio-cultural structures which render them unfree. A perception of the archetypal nature of civilization allows one to see the influential forces of the adversaries, Lucifer and Ahriman, at work in the unfolding narrative of human history.
The civilized worldview that reifies a counterfeit image of reality into existence has been generated through the workings of these beings into human consciousness. The civilian populace operates out of a worldview that obscures and distorts the true nature of reality, one that only exists in the abstract, having no correlation to actual facts of existence. [8]Consequently, the psychological lives of civilized individuals have become a chaotic conflation of desire and necessity. We have no idea what we need to form healthy human systems (individual and collective) so we settle for what we want, most of us oblivious to the fact that primal desires (e.g. sex and power) are deliberately amplified, exploited, and manipulated by groups of people with particular self-serving agendas. We are spiritually marooned as a people who have inherited a socio-cultural system that generates detrimental cognitive modalities and destructive behavioral patternings. Ours is a nation of wounded people abused by a deranged system. We are in the clutches of Lucifer and Ahriman. How has this come to be?
[1] Rudolf Steiner - 10/28/1918 - Supersensible Aspects of Historical Research.
[2] Neumann, Erich: Depth Psychology and a New Ethic, p. 130.
[3] Carl Jung: "Psychology andReligion" (1938). In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. p.140
[4] Carl Jung: Aion, p. 87.
[5] New American Standard Bible
[6] "...the things that have happened in our time and have led to chaos are not merely human actions, but above all the actions of ahrimanic spirits seeking to gain access by reducing human awareness...after the present catastrophe (WWI) broke on the world I pointed out that when we speak of the origins of this catastrophe in time to come, we must not do so on the basis of written records; instead we shall have to point to real facts through which ahrimanic spirits gained access to the stage of human events."(Steiner - The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, p. 23)
[7] "Inner attacks by Lucifer and by Lucifer & Ahriman together can be overcome by us. The struggles in the external world of matter have to be fought through to the end of Earth evolution." The FifthGospel, pp. 224-225).
[8] Steiner: The Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, p. 84: "The institutions and ideas, especially the social ideas people have today, are abstract and crude; they are clumsy in the face of the complexities lying ahead. And because people are not able to have ideas or concepts about the true nature of things, they are sliding more and more deeply into chaos - current events make this quite clear. Chaos is arising because reality has changed; reality is becoming fuller and richer than anything people are able to think of or create in their heads. And we shall have to be clear in our minds that we are faced with a choice: To go on beating each other to a pulp, shooting at one another, in the way we do now, because we do not know how to bring order into the world - or, start to develop concepts and ideas to match the complexity of the situation."
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beholding this seeming-separation
Brilliant Christophoros...
I would find it hard to find fault with much of what you've wrote into this artical....
There are very few people i know of with such clarity of awareness....
I see in your writing here something that i greatly enjoy seeing.......a direct set of connections...
..both to what i have been made aware of much of my life & more intensely so over the last twenty three years...
... & the conversation i had just a few hours ago....same subject matter precisely.
β┬ک
Awesome
as long as it stayed as a manual on earthly contexts. All reasonable and relatively easy to verify.
But where did this karma and cosmic Sophia stuff come from? How can anyone take your excellent advices on experiencing things through personal growth, if you serve predigested answers, very few people are able to relate to presently.
My personal opinions on the 'truth' of your cosmic doctrines are unimportant, but I question your methodology in the end.
brane tension suspension
"The converging crises of the present ""can be thought of"" as the fruition of karmic seeds planted into the soil of history;"
I'm thinking that the use of the word "karma" here was due to it being a ready made & simply understood concept denoting 'action/reaction' like effects....
..(which 'i' am most certainly aware of).. be it simply at the level of likelihood that you will be better treated by someone whom you treat well.. & the opposite if you treat them badly....
...to the ways in which 'something' that 'may' to some be known as "Sophia"(though not to me)... communicates with 'me' through action/reaction 'like' effects,...
.which are often instant effects ..(eg:..such as synchronicities stacking up rapidly........& even along an apparently steerable direction...by 'thought &/or deed'.
By the way Christophoros.....'if' your "Sophia" =
>"This evolutionary process hinges upon a reconnection of human consciousness with the consciousness of the universe, each of which are manifestations of the being known as Sophia, the active, benevolent, generative Wisdom underlying and informing all cosmic phenomena."<
then "Lucifer, Ahriman & ahrimanic spirits" are but aspects of your "Sophia".........surely?
they're just another little pinch of spice added to the mindfuck mix.
~Beyond The Shambles~
Re: bts
Not wanting to go at lengths on karma theory, my thoughts are, that it's not completely identical with causality, as we know causality in its common cosmic form. Besides karma-theory can't stand alone, but necessitates a broader context in cosmogony, cosmology, the existence of some kind of super-identity in complex beings etc.
Anyway Chris' vocabulary isn't exactly lacking or fumbling, so I guess he meant karma, not causality, when he said karma. That'll be up to him to clarify, if he wants.
The idea of non-human beings, often non-corporal, which feeds on our vital energy, exists in many cultures in one form or another. And there are so many similarities between the descriptions, that I'll take the idea as a working hypothesis without doubt.
But when it comes to Sophia, the situation is different. Traditonally the Sophia concept is associated with undiluted gnostic cosmogony (as far as such exists), and it was from her 'error' originated; 'error' at first manifesting in 'offspring' of Sophia as a group of entities caught up in ignorance about ultimate reality. Cosmos is the creation of these entities, so I think Chris sits on several chairs, when he mixes at least two, possibly three, different ideologies' cosmogonies. There is no 'soul' in karma-theory, while gnosticism acknowledge the concept of 'soul'. On the other hand the is no 'cosmic wisdom' in the original Sophia versions. So unless Chris tries to maintain a position of gnostic-christianity, with buddhist influences (something I wouldn't like to try), it looks as if he's been served a cosmological tall tale, which he uncritically has passed on.
Pity, because the more 'mundane' parts are very good.
Re-re B to B
I was just starting to read your words Bogomil, as a film i haven't seen before, 'Constantine' began on the TV here..
..it seems to be about a guy threatend with 'karmic LIKE' effects of his prior actions..so he's attempting to alter his seeming destiny by helping others (hopeing to create a better 'karmic LIKE' record for his self in order to avoid going to hell)...(my interpretation).
just now i was reading where you'd wrote
> "The idea of non-human beings, often non-corporal, which feeds on our vital energy, exists in many cultures in one form or another. And there are so many similarities between the descriptions, that I'll take the idea as a working hypothesis without doubt."<
.....as Constantine (Keanu Reeves) started doing battle with 'evil spirit' types..
..suchlike has been 'my' reality for over two decades (both the synchronism... & the reality of battling with less than pleasant spirits....
...understood by 'me' to be aspects of their source)..
..farther to the picture, 'Constantine' has chronic pulmonary disease through smoking cigarettes...so have i.....
As you noticed Bogomil..my understanding of Karma in its original form, or any form, is basic at best.....limited to what seems to me the most common of conceptions regarding it...rightly so or not..
You are clearly 'well read'...unlike myself...i've only ever read one book completely...& that was a novel, around fourty years ago..'The Devil Rides Out'...
(haha... while writing the line above^^^.. 'Satan' has just given up trying to drag Constantine off to hell, & 'left the scene', telling Constantine "you shall live")...
..see how it works 'for me/with me'?
By & large i've only my own experiences to draw from ...other than any 'meme' or similar i've swallowed inadvertently.....no books to direct my thinking..
so i know little or nothing about Sophia, ideologies, cosmogonies, karma-theory, soul, gnosticism, christianity or buddhism.
though as i've already touched on...i've spent many years fighting with 'spirits' who'd seemingly have me 'believe' whatever shit they can manage to infect me & my reality with...
i resist this by finding whatever i can to show them their error..they 'seem' grateful when i 'seem' successful.
It could be construed that i was 'over generous' with my responce to Christophoros..
.. it may be so....i'll clarify...perhaps i should have better wrote,>
"There are very few people i know of with such clarity of awareness"...& even fewer whom are subjected to a clearer view.
Bogomil ..these words of yours.."I'll take the idea as a working hypothesis without doubt.". seems to suggest you've no 'working experience' with the mentioned matter..may i ask if that is so?
~BoyanTly Synching~
are you joking
Vow, Chris I reckon you have taken overthiking and overtalking to a whole different level. Man, who the heck did you write this essay to anyway, Hegel? I mean, i realise, that Reality Sandvich is an advanced audience and some people here are well familiar with philosophical works and probably are used to the overtalking of the subjects but come on now. Truth is simple Chris and bullshit is complicated! Your writing looks to me like mental masturbation, impressing yourself. Complex issues are meant to be approached in a simple form specially if you try to reach others with it. Daniel Pinchback for example is writing about intricate subjects with beautiful simplicity. Chris, half of the world's population is outright dying, the other half are walking zombies and we all are manipulated to the bone. What are you saying?, that we just all should get quickly enlightened to the cosmic wisdom only by trying. Sure, in the times of Delphi it was relevent to get to know ourselves but no one would have thought at that time that another 3000 years of torturous brainwashing manipulation will follow. Today back here on Planet Earth Chris the problems we face have got nothing to do with the individual's inner reflection trhough the cosmic mirror. Your naivity to advice us to realise our fallen state and get together is scary, the next you will advice the dead to hop out of the graves and start playing soccer. The contemporary conditions as you write are not rooted in the past deeds but being maintained by the same forces that manipulate the masses (including you very well mind you) and has got nothing to do with Karma. Bogomil is too soft on you by try to work out your particular messages i reckon its a waste of time. I know i am hard on you but only because your work is not constructive ( this not a University tutorial) and not because you are not brilliant with words cause you are, but being smart for yourself is questionable in it's aim and smart for the others is a whole different story.
re: bts whatta....?
To be sure that you Chris
To be sure that you Chris understand what i have been trying to point to, i ask you a question. Are you saying you-you beautifuly spoken philospher-, that the man who had lost his family by the hand of the fanatic psycho maniacs in the seats of power and is rigth now being turtured, his fingernails being pulled off, that the mother whose child had been ripped out or the 15 year old boy who had been water-boarded or the grandmother who had been teasered by the police or the blackman whose 10 year old daughter had been stripsearched in broad dayligth, that they owe your cosmos a favour, that the evil exists in the depth of their soul and that they should just self-transform themselves, that they are destructive and selfserving, that they should integrate their hidden wounded dimension?
Is that what you are saying?
Continued re-re-res and also to Hungarian
I'm very familiar with the movie 'Constantine'. In an intelligent and entertaining way it presents concepts, I disagree strongly with. But you can have 'worthy' opponents, whom you can respect. This film expresses such a 'worthy' opponent attitude.
I'm non-attached to any specific organised religion. I relate expectantly to karma-theory, because it's so vaguely defined and out-of-context, that it's out of my grasp of understanding; and I'm very critical of christian values concerning good/bad, cosmos etc, because the basic rules and doctrines (as presented by the church) are so self-contradictory and often politically misused, that they are not only meaningless, but directly dangerous in the wrong hands.
I'll agree with, that Chris is somewhat many-worded, putting himself out of reach to many readers. But I will defend his suggestion of method to approach truth/reality (once you've cut through the words). Cultures, groups or individuals using this method demonstrably 'get somewhere' and manifest worldly results (non-violence, compassion etc) that everybody except warbuffs will sympathize with.
It's when he gets 'cosmic', the fantasy factory is working overtime. He presents a variation of the 'everything is OK' idea, and as Hungarian commented, this is contrary to many pragmatic observations of life. The 'everything is OK' enthusiasts usually 'prove' their point by creating endless, convoluted, sophisticated and intricate arguments, but when you boil these arguments down to essence, it is exactly as the film 'Constantine' ended: "God's ways are mysterious". End of discussion. And it implies, that anyone questioning it is both somewhat imbecile, and also in any case so filled with 'original sin', that s/he has no right to an opinion. A socalled double-bind.
On the other hand buddhism and gnosticism present (while gloomy) models of existence, which relate directly to observation, without sophistery etc. But then: The christian practical method for finding truth is simple. Surrender (to JC, god and church) and pray. It has a certain appeal to the lazy. The buddhistic/gnostic 'path' is long and complex.
As to my own experiences with 'negative entities' ('negs'). Yes, I've had more than my share of it. My own observations and conclusions are, that they feed on our vital energies, which they provoke forth by instilling fear. After some years of ruminations on the subject, I've formed some ideas of why and how on the situation. The negs are usually attracted intially by strong negative human emotions (fear, hate, aggression etc); maybe not even originating from yourself, but from persons around you. Overdoing recreational drugs can be another attraction point.
Countermeasures: Get rid of strong negative emotions in yourself, or if in other persons, get rid of them. Don't be too much alone, negs aren't fond of groups of humans. Ask someone competent to perform an exorcism (my own attitude to christianity made me choose a tibetan buddhist variety. It actually helped). And the most effective, but extremly difficult method: Ignore the negs (it has taken me years to learn how to do that). If they can't feed on you, using your own fear against you, they loose interest. Start by doing something so banal human, that you can forget yourself in it, even at the risk of becomening e.g. a shopping mall zombie for a while. Go to idiotic parties (but keep the booze at low-level. Flirt with man-eaters.
thank you bogomil
re: Bogomil
It was a bit hard for me to work out which part was for me so if i answer to something that wasn't meant for me just ignore it. Look, i know, that i had come across as a very negative person, someone who is bitter and angry. I am not. Many times i am the one who defends the writers from devastating comments and here i was on the other side devastating the writer. What made me tick off in Chris's case iam not quite sure since i could have said a lot of complementing comments too about his work. Yeah you are right in much of what you wrote and i suppose my pen was picked up a bit too fast again. I am against negativity too and only learning slowly how to let go of being hasty. Perhaps i pay too much attention to negative information in fear of being brainwashed. Standing up for the suffering of others is in my carachter and i do take it too far sometimes and being blinded in the process, arrogant and aggressive. In this case i fell into the trap i am warning others about. As far as lazy or simple goes you could think of me as such after my letter and i have little desire to prove you wrong here. All and all thank you for your comments and for defending Chris and the subject itself you did it with grace and it was an hounorable thing to do.
Regarding to some of Chris's massage, i don't personaly believe that a man can change or transform in carachter. In large, what we are born with we die with, so the subject of personal tarnsformation to me is alien. (Regardless i do think, that to get to know that carachter is very important so the Delphi writing remains timeless.) On the other hand the carachter is a complex phenomenon and can not be reduced to simple qualitiaties. I don't believe in good and bad either but i do believe that our world is brutal and unjust (this is a simplified statement too lacking much more intricate akcnowledgements) and as such certain carachters are fitting into it better than others. The carachetrs don't cahnge but the world can and i think it will. Overall i am not against trying to change ourselves or teach each other to change as we can not just stand idol, building hope is the best we can do. Do that with loving reverence and unconditional forgiveness is probably the best way to go.
Sometimes when i think about the way things worked out in my life i am not even sure that i had anything to do with them at all. The coinsidences are just too wierd and without chance. So just maybe nothing we can change in the end. And as silly and christaian is the final message of those who as you said want kill any debate with it : God does seem to work in very mysterious ways
Coincidence
Coincidences are far more amazing events than the so-called 'common view' would have you believe... . . . far more amazing...
... The hungarian heart. ...
the higher the odds against what several Coincidences may allow you to see..& or..
..the more you are subjected to seeing their relevance & their ability to inform you, ... ..the more you may come to realizations, which so-called 'common view' followers... ... would mock you for.
β┬ک
Re: Hungarian and bts
Make no mistakes about my motives for partly defending Chris. I'm neither tolerant nor goodhearted in connection with web-forum debates. Actually I'm mostly irritatingly querulous, because I think, that many topics or issues are approached from very narrow doctrinal, even secterian, perspectives. I miss a much broader context.
Basically there is a handful of assumptions on 'God', creation, the true nature of the universe and beyond, and how to find 'answers'. And from such fundamental models/systems/ideologies will grow innumerable branches, which eventually will loose contact with their origin and develop into detached models/systems/ideologies, by believers considered 'true'. No need for further evidence, justification etc. in the opinion of the faithful. E.g.: The bible is true, because it's true (according to christian fundamentalists).
Communication between such self-confirming 'free-floating' systems etc. is mostly Babel-talk; there's no common communication-ground, and the various factions have no real idea about, what other factions are saying. The result is a lot of black/white opinions thrown back and forth, often resulting in violent cultural clashes, and always in waste of time and energy, which could have been used better in a search for answers.
E.g., from what perspective is it possible to reconcile your observation of the existence of 'evil' happening to the innocent, with ideas of 'goodness'? And is it possible to make an active choice (of change) between these seemingly opposites? I think, we have to dig very deep for that (not necessarily in an intellectual way).
From the 'roots', and including many facets, I have my own tentative suggestion. This vague concept, 'will', in connection with an inner identity, can make a choice between two options life seems to offer us. Passively accepting that 'sh*t happens' or trying to learn the mechanisms behind this, so we are able to minimize the effects.
It's a long and arduous journey to search for truth instead of accepting doctrines, because the traveller often meets situations, where there are no straws to cling to, but only a wish to continue as motivation. To start on this or not? That's the first, and in case of 'no', last choice, a 'seeker' asks.
And in case of 'yes' at first there will be more questions, and questions about questions, than answers.
bts: Coincidences often have an underlying, but for us invisible, pattern, where everything fits nicely together.
Bogomil,bts I probably
Bogomil,bts
I probably have to admit to myself (and i have done that already) that i am part of this 'narrow' debate and much of the things i am writing i do it from an preconcieved angle which isn't very flexible at all. I am trying willfully not to find any major faults with RS mostly because i want to be a part of it, i want to belong there. I do recognise that the structure of it and the application of it lacks certain freedoms, freedoms that are likely to be neccessary to step into a realm of realness. Sometimes iam yearning for a kind of independence, that isn't possible to share with anyone. Being in the shadow of other thinkers can have very real limitations for true discovery and i know some of the gratest visionaries (and truth is sometimes i do entertain myself with the thougth that i am one even if i don't have a well defined field) haven't discussed their work untill it was ready. The Ego is very much present in the comments displayed here and mine is no exeption. Revolutionrabbit is right that the good old pat on the back is part of our engagement here on RS, we all wish to look smart and elevated. On the other hand, i also think that through the Ego chessgame we can learn if not from others but from ourselves and maybe sometimes even from others, through little fragments of sentences, accidentaly dropped words, mistaken, illconcieved ideas and thinking errors.
I am not looking for answers, iam looking for questions! Shit happens but what else does? I don't actualy think that on deeper looking everything fits together nicely even if that's what it seems to be showing or mascarading for us. Deeper look brings greater confusion and coincidencies only get more mysterious. Life to me seem to give itself over to you in chunks and you can only learn what it shows you on its on terms nomatter how much you trying to look deeper or want hurry it up. I read your debate about the Norway spiral and i reckon just like the crop circles it is useless for us to try to make sense of the message, incrypt the meaning. The UFO phenomenon is old and chewed to bits a billion times and it evades us with ease. How many times are we gonna attempt the same thing? It migth be just drawing energy from our thinking, maybe its a trap, maybe it is as with the subatomic world it is ultimately unobservable, uncertain. As Hegel said "the truth can not be percieved" its validity lies elsewhere. Anyway i would love to know what is that broader context that you mentioned. Your eloquence is interesting and your grumpyness is refreshing, would love to hear more from you
bts: you have every rigth to think that i am a dickhead cause i was. I for one don't mock you infact i am happy that you answered and i don't know if i belong to the 'common view-ers) you think so ?
serendipitus perhaps
Well, it seems we've found ourselves in a quiet little spot at RS without expending much effort doing so, i hope Dan P and Christophoros are happy anough with that,
i'm planing to say more about his post, his topic, at some point later, (i know it comes across as secondhand information rather than from the horses mouth, so to speak), perhaps i'm wrong, but i think i may know what he was driving at, given that i've entertained thoughts along those lines myself, even experienced similar, more later.
Bogomil,
I'll first say, your views above (Re: Hungarian and bts) in the main express many of my own quite exactly, you seem to have put 'my' thoughts in better words than i've so-far achieved.
So no need for me to go over the same affirmations.
I'm moved to comment on this line though, which i find very intresting, although you may have ment something different than how i've interpretated it.>
"trying to learn the mechanisms behind this, so we are able to minimize the effects."
The reason why, is because i found myself in such a position, that determined a felt need to "learn the mechanisms" in order to "minimize the effects."
Briefly, rather than describe my life from being sixteen to thirty five, for now, suffice to say that i was very ill and getting worse, i was near death, it seemed, the pain was extremely hard to cope with and i'd become bedridden, in the best way i could manage i was preparing myself for death within the hour or even minutes.
Within the intensity of this situation i'd started to notice several odd effects taking place, one such effect becoming apparent was that when my mind drifted along certain tracks, my pains seemed to diminish, getting worse again while other thoughts drifted through, very noticably so,
perhaps at first putting this down to going into semi-consciousness and coming to again,
But it was soon obvious that something deeper was happening, as by now i was realizing that what i was thinking definitely did have some sort of connection with what i was experiencing. not just with my sensed pain, but 'all' my senses, my 'reality'.
This was the start of me learning the mechanisms, or as i now see it, twenty three years later, unmistakably, 'being taught the mechanisms'.
Of course, it was just the introduction for what was to follow...
...with a little thought you may see a semblance in my last few sentences with Christo's words, or what he seemed to be implying,
ie: thought and deed effecting reality...reality effecting thought and deed...
(i'm not talking about mundane understandings here)
... maybe on an 'personal' level at first, but with a potential for expansion to an individuals surroundings....even encompassing locally, anothers reality..briefly or longer, and so on.
as an example..... a so called 'exorcist/shaman' or whatever, ridding a persons reality/consciousness of an unwanted entity.
I'd like to hear more on your thoughts and/or experiences regarding coincidence, as well as your negative or even positive entity experiences.
The hungarian heart,
It may be better to 'not' try and actively find fault, and yet if fault presents itself, i'd say it's not such a good idea to ignore it, obvious really, 'trying to fit in' isn't the best way to expand a consciousness, though i'm sure you realize this.
I'm certainly not here to collect 'pats on the back', although i do prefare getting on with everyone, even the 'seeming' dumbest, i learnt a long time ago that out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, drunks, fools, the mentaly impaired and the downright ignorant, wise words can and do fall.
"little fragments of sentences, accidentaly dropped words, mistaken, illconcieved ideas and thinking errors." ..
. yes.. everything can provide a reference, both for the self, and of others, clues to attunment on many levels, real or imagined.
Question > at what point does a coincidence or series of, become something that raises awareness above the 'mundane'?
Things 'can' fit together, is a more correct way of seeing possibilities for connections, and the way they 'can' fit isn't always 'nice',
one individual attempting to show another something that may be very obvious to the first, could never be successfull in convaying his information unless the second person was attuned to recieving it.
(connection or not 'can' be souly for an individual)
"Deeper look brings greater confusion and coincidencies only get more mysterious."
Yes, at first, it may take a lifetime before even 'small' realizations can be drawn, then again, with the right 'input', huge steps away from old views can be had.
(The first line of something i wrote into RS maybe a year ago> 'Just 'one' dream can split the seam')
"you can only learn what it shows you on its on terms nomatter how much you trying to look deeper or want hurry it up."
the personal 'message' within any event will either 'present itself' to you and obviously so, or it will not. even regarding "UFOs"
Perhaps Hegel was talking about an 'ultimate truth', maybe from a point of view whereby all we can ever know is that which our reality/our illusion, shows us..
..in which case i'd agree with his statement "the truth can not be percieved" its validity lies elsewhere,
personal truths most certainly are percieved, it's dependent on the restrictions within the conversation, the level of speach and understanding framing the statment,
'pain hurts' is an example...try and deny its 'truth'.
I don't think you are a "dickhead" THH, not a thought like that at all, perhaps a little hasty with your first posts, i almost did the same, luckly i re-read Christo's post before i slaged it, jumping to a negative conclusion often when i quickly glance over a post.
from what i've allready seen in your words, you are 'not' one of the 'common view-ers', my opinion (for what it's worth)...you have begun to see beyond that stage.
β┬ک
Re: Hungarian (and bts)
Hungarian. Thanks for your well-considered and kind answer.
A modern lorry functions through a complex feedback system between different components. Hydralic, pneumatic, electrical etc. The intrinsic qualities of the various components are not interchangeable, only interdependent. The navigation of a running lorry (in an 'outer' context) is directed through the intent of the driver.
I hold, that the cosmic entity of a human individual similarly is made of three basic components: Body, emotions and intellect; one notch up with will as intent*. And furthermore, that mankind is dysfunctional, having blind spots in the area of emotions (and thus human intent/will will be damaged from lack of totality).
Naturally such emotionally blind spots will be a weak link in the chain of human functionality, and as such attract much attention. 'Answers' have forthcome, both theoretical and methodological. E.g. the need and importance of compassion; a sensible suggestion. Other answers on the line of : "Love is all you need", where emotions are exalted above the other components in a human being, are at best just silly. When resulting in anti-intellectualism or anti-physical models a new dysfunctionality will arise. The human entity only functions, when all components do their specific job and feed-back relate to each other.
A considerable part of the 'connections' we call karma, synchronicity, fate etc have their origin in the non-observed and non-understood 'hidden' area of emotions. And as we on top of that also incorrectly assume, that emotions have the same yes/no manichean?taoistic? optional opposites as body and intellect have, instead of an on/off function, we manifest a lot of really scewed up behaviour. (But SOME 'connections' origin from the areas of hyperdimension and/or different 'densities/speeds').
By attempting to make the emotional component functional, several benefits will turn up. Not least the 'ego' aspect, where 'ego' actually is a low-grade substitute for will/intent. The more functional totality in a human being, the less need of an 'ego'. Practically speaking devotion can be a good method, but it has a tendency to become single-minded and exclusive. Personally I'm positive to Dalai Lama's message: "Be nice to your neighbours". Just that can be difficult enough to achieve; aiming for the stars can be just wishthinking or cosmetic delusion.
I have here presented an 'answer'. As answers go, it has the advantage of being testable, if its hypothetical value is accepted. In a dynamic sense, I'm not trying to interfere with anybody's choice FOR this model, it could be insufficient. What I usually protest against is categorically, more or less direct doctrines AGAINST it. There is a difference.
* This is a derivative of the 'Guna' theory in Tantra. Later developed into 'The fourth way' by Gurdjieff. It's significant, that subatomic particles show an identical pattern to this model. Though my version of this model differs considerably concerning the trans-cosmic intent (=motives of creation of our cosmos). I am buddhist/gnostic oriented.
PS. bts, I am impressed by the authenticity and the actual content of your comment. A reply will be around eventually. This exchange is getting really interesting and what I hope for on RS. Maybe symptomatic, that it's outside the mainstream of threads.
Re: bts
I'll make my answer short.
Between observed suffering and its origin (and possible purpose), there is a knowledge/understanding gap. Those who doctrinally already have decided, what this origin (and purpose) is, fill out the gap with assumptions and circle-argumentation.
Those who want to have real knowledge/understanding follow a slow process of pragmatism and experimentation. As you did, and I did in a somewhat similar situation, where my life was at stake.
Bogomil With utter
Bogomil
With utter respect to your extraordinary eloquence and i don't mean to be abusing your time or narrow the debate again but please answer me something. I don't at this stage understand why is that explonation any more positive or morally acceptable than to say that we are intellectualy being mislead or brainwashed and if we were to lift some of the fog and remove the conflict ridden nature of our common existence than a whole new world of initialy pure intellectuality would advance and with that would come the emotional balancing out of our nature. Which to some degree leads us back to my first response after which i agreed that i was hasty and strongly lacking of the positive and patient approach. At this point i still do fail to see how we can reach an emotionaly high or more complete stage while there are untold atricities are being commited every second all around us to our brothers and sisiters. To what end should there be a desire to become more balanced emotionaly if just maybe it isn't our emotional inballance but our inherent incapacity to completely ignore our circumstances and act with grace in a totally disgraceful situation. Am i completely outragous if i find offence in acting with friendly face toward my utter enemies? The Dalai Lama shakes hands with people who are directly creating and commiting some of the greatest war crimes in history. He had done that for a long time now and those persons are not learning from his grace at all infact they enjoy the stance he makes because it is in their best interest since this way they will appear in the good with those who are trying to be graceful and believe the better nature of man trhough the Dalai Lama's actions, stances and teachings. I am not advocating any revenge or conflict against anybody just simply feel the need to show a backbone. Not anger or bitterness only non-violent opposition that i am looking at here. What do you think?
bts jumping straight
bts
jumping straight into it, i find the part which you intended to Bogomil about your experiences and your self tought dynamics of your pain and thought alteration very very interesting. You said you had found a mechanism for yourself that worked miracles. Please let me in on with some more details into that mechanism. That is something i have been doing experiments with too with a lot of success and quite some failers, perhaps mostly, because i have been engaged in these experiments for a much shorter time. I admire that kind of self thought initiative and would be absolutely delighted to know more about it!
I have read Hegel in German and Hungarian and i most probably mistranslated him. What means is that you can come to know the truth trough perception it is in the realm of the mind (but even this one is an oversimplified version of his words sorry). I don't share your non-exclusivness when it comes to people.
I can not be a friend or pal of just anybody. But when it comes to learning from the most unlikely 'low life nobody', outsider who would be ignored by everybody, i excel. I am moved and touched intellectually by many of the self-proclaimed loosers.
Thanks again
Re: Hungarian
Thanks for your comment. You have a talent for being relevant and to the point, so your questions are not irritating ideological retoric, but instead stimulate me to respond as well as I can.
My own character and attitude to life is more along the line of a craftman, not that of a missionary. The important thing is to find functional solutions to problems; personal and ideological prestige are secondary (though I ofcourse do take some pride in a job well done).
So the lorry-metaphor in my last post wasn't meant to start an ideological movement around my own special 'answer' to the question of why mankind is so dysfunctional. My answer is a 'tool', which on an individual basis can be used for diagnosis and also for finding a strategy for 'repairment'.
This 'tool' is to be used as a general outline in the process of individual realitypotential-search. It doesn't produce instant answers or doctrines. So my stressing of the emotional aspect, was on the lines of e.g. adjusting the carbureter in a car, so the car can function optimally in servicing its purpose. Not a suggestion, that everybody should turn into smarmy customers.
I'm fairly convinced, that an overwhelming majority of human beings go through life using 5-10 percent of their potential. Compared to what we could have been, we are practically speaking imbecile. The reason for this being an inner lack of context and integration of our 'components'. With another technical metaphor, we are not 'energy-efficient'. We leak energy as a sieve, and our inner energy distribution between our 'components' is often more like a civil war than the totality of a structure working together.
When this problem is solved (if ever) and we function optimally, we can start looking for the bigger answers.
I haven't met Dalai Lama personally, but some other high-ranking lamas. And it was my impression, that these people use their potential considerably better than most of us. They can react more balanced to situations, which would bring the worst out in the rest of us.
Diplomats smile, it's part of the theater. If they don't, the stockmarket will have hiccoughs and the warmongers screaming for more weapon. So diplomats MUST smile. But I believe, that Dalai Lama's smile is honest and real.
'
Human history has been an unending series of evil empires, and retaliation or counter-ideologies have never been an answer. So the human using his potential goes beyond this, refusing to be sucked up by the confusion. Only from there can a cure for mankind's ailments be found.
This is similar to what Chris said in his article. Had he only skipped the 'cosmic wisdom' etc. conclusions and let people find out about that themselves, when they are competent, the article would have been a little masterpiece.
conspiracy
Bogomil,
Its a bad habit of mine that i write things other than i want to. What i meant when i wrote about lifting the fog and go from there, that we not just go that way instead of what you suggested but what i wanted to say is, that it doesn't matter which component is the one that first has to be fixed, because the powers to be make sure and have been making sure very effectively, that our intellectuality together with our emotional plain and even very surely our phisicality is way underdeveloped, and so i completely agree with you that we use very little of our potential. I lean strongly toward the conspiracy mongrels and so i do think that as long as the current status quo is unstopped one way or another, humanity stands little chance to get hold of any juctice. People's emotional situation will have nothing to do with the outcome simply because it will not be allowed by the larger powers. If for instance hunger and crazy laws are ruling the world than the components can not possibly work well and in harmony inspite of all the good advice of Christophuros. These crazy laws and hunger are not made and maintained by mistaken people who just simply misundestood the state of affairs but very well prepared and planned intentionally by those who make great profit and power out of it. Those people (or entities) are not going to change just by reading Chris nor any other argument, they have been doing this for the most part of the last 1000 years. The system they are imploying is intricate, based on pchichology simple and complex, it is enirely independent of individual's emotional advancement or well working componenets, individuals make no difference to the system as their control is growing by day to day, and if things escalate too far with some famous individuals (who have excess to larger communities) than they will rectify the situation, if you know what i mean.
Yes, i do believe with all my heart, that some individual can grow in the face of the repression and it has inspirational effect on some others but their number is under control.
Knowing and understanding this, is not negativity, it is the liberating truth and the truth is always positive. I have got no judgement or revenge in me nor do i point the finger of responsibility toward anybody or anything. Life has given me the chance to learn these things and i took that chance nomatter what comes. It has also given me the strength to have faith and the intellectual power to think that inspite of all their best effort and the history of all the happenings, their days are ultimately numbered and, that the world as it has can not go on for long. We can not move from the spiritual toward the material much more, it is simply impossible, the line is about to end and nothing inspite of their highest knowledge and sophisticated plans, they can do about it.
So you see, i am positive and i am hopeful without fear, anger and much attachment(i have got no material possesion by choice, nothing), i am inspired, strong and full of life, i learn everyday and so to some degree we could say i am free. Now, every time i write a letter in a more robust tone someone reminds about Conficius and the value of doubts. so i'd like to say, that i am not beyond doubts about anything i said but doubting something, that showed itself to be valid so many times is a disrespect against learning. So far nothing i experienced in the last 13 years that gave me enough stimuli to leave my words behind and reform to a new line of thinking. Conspiracies appear more real to me than anything in this world. Some signs of conspiracies are hard to read but others are extremely blatant, literally begging to be noticed. Not to take notice of them is a plain rejection of common observation. By the way, thank you for correcting me on the other thread about the more appropriate numbers in relation to the Obama cousine story. You stood by me there even if you don't like to hear this. Again, understanding something that is negative is not negativity, being negative about it is. I truely hope i haven't screwed up the debate between us with this letter so i hope to hear from you.
Re: Hungarian
Hi Hungarian, thanks for your answer. I will follow your lead, concentrating on the content of your latest post after a few initial comments going off in parallel directions.
Our present topic has several facets. Some of them very abstract, concerning qualities of the great unknown. I.e. 'reality', non-manifested existence, a possible creator of cosmos and the intent in creation, hypotheses in quantum physics, observer-created 'reality', existence as an illusion etc. Another facet, slightly less abstract, is the overall pattern in manifested existence. E.g. the 'natural laws' governing cosmos, including those we don't know yet.
Such perspectives are very encompassing and beyond the scope of a post, but they are indirectly a part of the main theme of your post, and form part of my answer. Though in a passive way, which you can consider doctrinal on my part for the time being.
All in all I consider all cosmic phenomena (down to zero-point) as based on similar basic principles/patterns, repeating themselves in various degrees of complexity. A kind of 'as above, so below'. Depending on what approach we use (scientific, religious, philosophical....), there is a lot of terminologies to choose between. In the present context I prefer to describe the basic cosmic principles as 'predatory'.
My metaphor on a dysfunctional lorry, where the components obstruct each other, is as I said before, describing the human 'ego' (in the buddhistic sense), and personally I have very strong reasons to think, that cosmos as a whole runs along similar lines (as said, this can be open for later debate). Cosmos is like the human 'ego' a dysfunctional system, where the components predate on each other instead of acting symbiotically.
Thus in a pyramid/hierarchy of power (of all kinds), I am not surprised find 'ego'-based/predatory behaviour on all levels. The average human in small, petty ways. The powers that be motivated by sociopathic drives, talents for manipulation etc. To expect higher ethics in our overlords than from the average person will only create a feeling of pessimism. They are in the same boat as the rest of us, only with greater talents for acchieving ego-based/predatory goals.
At first this outlook can seem gloomy, but I take a broad view. Such an ego-based/predatory system IS dysfunctional in many ways, e.g. energy-insufficent, and will eventually collaps from the inside. Doubts on this can be illustrated by the fate of 'evil empires', where inner strife and lack of energy will make such structures 'decadent'.
So considered in long terms of time, I'm optimistic. 'Evil' will destroy itself automatically, not even necessitating higher benevolent divine powers.
In the meantime I live more or less as you do; minimizing my expectations and trying to use my potential as 'symbiotically' as possible from ground level (this does not mean, I want to be a yes-man). I believe, that patience is a key-word for me.
Hi Christopheros
the truth
Dear Bogomil
Sorry that I am too blatant here.
Yes we are predetary, simply because the inherent animal predator in us have been cherished and provoked untill like the fighting dog which has been poked with electric sticks will turn into a saliva-dripping, merciless killing machine so are human beings have been incited, and aggravated against each other non-stop on the daily basesand with this turned into mindless agressors and perdators!!! This is not only not natural but has really not much to do with human nature!
I actualy believe, that it is Christophuros' writing that is negative which portrays human beings as a hopeless, disabled bunch of wierdos who due to their faulty inbuilt and bad wireing, simply incapable of living any kind of dignified existence. And You seem to be standing by him on this point. Both of you argument would be very well based if (huge if) there wasn't an overwhelming delibrate and organised (extraordinaliry well and visibly organised) effort wheighing down on society and the individuals not to be able to develop and grow with it's own speed according to its own faculties and potential. I realise now that the both of you are under the impression that we are simply being misconcieved and mistaken. THIS IS NOT THE CASE!!!!!!!!! Larger conflicts are not developing, they are being provoked,erupted and maintained by those who make profits and power out of that situation! All laws in every country are designed for division and disorder (thus comes the good old "Divide and Conquer"). The media (the free press, yeah rigth) is the perfect vehicle to deliver and back up their mission. Explain to me why would you just let things just happen if you CAN create a situation where whatever happens is in your best interest. It is not not that difficult to do! You need to be in power (why do you think the largest industrialists, presidents and mega-families are getting together on the regular bases, what to play poker!!!),you need to know how to divide the masses, how to maintain the division and how to get away with all of this!!! Look around! Every sign is there if you know what you looking for. If they just let you grow and get smart and good all around than you will not gonna buy into their drama live on daytime TV and become a blind consumer now will you. No you will smart up to find the way to resist, aren't you? Bogomil, i can write a book about this to you and it will not make any difference if you choose to ignore this state of affairs.
I realise that you are a Budhist/Gnostic and you probably think its judging or pointing a finger but this is simply establishing the facts and if you are not allowed to do that you can not even say that the planet is round.
You have a few dignified options that covers reality and remains true to what is actualy happening. One, is to say as Pinchback mentions it, that wars and conflicts are necessary to create a dynamics in which the living soul can evolve ( you know, in crisis appearently we grow faster-i don't believe this either) and that human becomes more than it's creater through the tribulations of life and the creater will understand more through your journey (that is a very smart argument and allows you to find sense and almost counsolation-but with this one too there a major questions). Or, go with the Eastern thinking, which is that Good and Bad are complementary opposites and so the negative elements are just the part of nature and the powers to be basically doing humanity a favour to srew them around and create a "healthy" whole. But to ignore what is being done to us by the Powers to be is simply missing the vital component of the planet's reality.
Re: Hungarian
Dear Hungarian, thanks for your post and don't worry about the blatancy. I like intelligent opposition.
Concerning the predatory nature of humanity, I in my last post tried to demonstrate, that this isn't only a shortcoming in us, but in all complex beings based on the very character of cosmos itself.
Even if this theory of mine is debatable, it's at least clear, that many animal species DO have a predatory nature, often exceeding just needs for survival, but actually getting into bloodfrenzies, killing excessively from sheer bloodthirst. Other complex species again will on occasion invade the territory of members of its own species and fight outright 'wars'.
So please further justify your opinion on the implied 'goodness-of-human-nature-if-left-alone'. Not only our animal basis suggests the opposite, various pedagogical and social 'experiments' (as permissive upbringing and extremely liberal wellfaresystems) very clearly have demonstrated, that mankind is very ego-centered. I don't mean positively evil, but not very altruistic, compassionate or symbiotic either.
But you are certainly right, that we are helped on our way towards negative ethic behaviour by the powers that be. My point is though, that most relatively decent (=only small-scaled egotists) don't seem to mind very much. They will flock around the Hitlers, Stalins, Maos etc. I know, that: "Suppose they made a war, and nobody came" is a tired clichée, but there are other, active, ways of making this a better world. But sorry, I don't see many doing it, only a small handful of overworked idealists.
So while I share your dislike for the powers that be, I also believe it's oversimplifying the situation by ascribing all human problems to them. A bit more on this later, after I've looked at my own options on how to stop the problem.
Based on my own cosmogony, cosmology and speculations on theology (=the intent in creation), I am an intense critic of the idea, that cosmos is 'for growing'. This is pure doctrine, created by abramic propanganda-makers and sneaked into an unholy mish-mash of fake asian philosophy via new-age'ism. I've never seen a single sound argument for such an idea.
Cit from your post:
"Or, go with the Eastern thinking, which is that Good and Bad are complementary opposites and so the negative elements are just the part of nature......"
This has nothing to do with eastern thinking, at least not the one I propose. This is eastern thinking, which has been through a christian interpretation, and thus practically coming out with the opposite meaning of the intended. Both gnostics and buddhists operated with 'error/ignorance' as the basis of cosmic and human shortcomings. The 'evil' and 'sin' stuff is a christian invention and necessitates a completely different 'cure' than the one based on gnosis/realisation.
bogomil you are a good
bogomil you are a good sport
Isn' it just very interesting that you just landed on the top of the critical point in this issue. So i start by saying that i do believe in the scientific methods and i see tremendous logic in the theory of Natural Selection but with the best will in the world the theory has huge gaps, the gap that does not explain how humanity springs from the animal world is the most interesting part. In any case i am willing to acknowledge that humans are somehow evolve from animals but i certainly wouldn't go the distance to say that whatever charachter they posess (animals) should be taken for humans the same way. Here is the critical point. The difference between humans and animals are not based on intelligence, not even on the level of consciousness but on the very point you claim isn't in the nature of the universe: Growth and Development. This to me is the real feature we definitely not share with any animal species. only us can by our own choice and will step onto the path of development. Something happend to us in the course of the evolutionary process that freed us from the same predicament that is shared by every other living creature and with that also from the cage of the predetory or any other purely instictual behavior. I can not argue from the perspective of the cosmos but when it comes to humans the line changes, here we have a completely unique stage, an unparalleled, free category, the fundamental gift of human existence.
Beyond emphasysing the uniqueness of the human category i should point out that not even animals are naturaly bloddthirsty. As for animals: human behaviour is effecting our planet for many thousands of years. I believe that human behaviour and the way we live has produced a vibration that resonates trough and to all living entities. Especially,prime apes and animals with a limbic system are susceptible for this resonance. Im suggesting that animals are picking up on human attitudes, our unhinged, savage mode of living. It is us that modifies the natural current, rehaping the tendencies, bring over-violence and unreasonable savagary into being. The element i believe that is not in the nature of any animal in the first place.
My deeply seated belief in the goodness of human nature has on the other hand had been beautifuly justified by the way the Australian Abroginees lived for 40 000 years before the English come to ruin the party. Peace and harmony and not just with each other but with nature!!
Even more importantly the Archeological find that rocked the world of archeology and evolutionary antropology whereby the find about now twenty years ago where archeologists unearthed the unmistakable signs of the very first human civilisation dates back around 7000 years. The location is the todays Turkey and it lasted for a whole millenia. What has really shook the foundation of the main theories behind the bases and reason of why and how human civilisations came about is the FACT that they have found no evidence (inspite of their best effort) of any form of violence (not even sacrificial) or sign of any conflict!!!!! This finding shaterred all attempt to theorise that civilisations are the result of conflict. Since our history is written by those who primarily advocate wars therefore this arceological diamond is to say the least had not been advertised, in fact every attempt has been made to keep it out of sigth. Nevertheless it is the perfect and full answer to your comment and the response upon your belief about the capacity of humans to live in harmony. A 1000 years of utter peace. A 1000 years.
From here again i am speculating when i claim that this peaceful civilisation did not put extraordinary emphasy on keeping the peace it was mainly the part of plain existence, the raw being. Furthermore, i think though non of this says anything about the real quality of existence in that world but still i would imagine quite a happy place to be living in. Now, imagine and i mean really try to visualise put your mind to what could be done and built if non of todays brutal and debilitating restrictions would exist. The quality of life could be componded by a specifically designed structure that we could almost say lies on the very other end of the spectrum compare to by what we live today. There is an absolut miryad of things come to my head without much focus as to what we could do, the doors that would open up which are completely impossible to see from our ridiculous vantage point. Freeing our mind is the key to all of this. Imagine not to be worried about the things we have to here and just let go of your goodness and creativity .It has nothing to do with being idealistic it it just plain realese of some of the inherent juice we all have.
Steping back a bit i must also add that let suppose that you are completely rigth and man and nature was originally predetary and cruel arriving at even bloodfrenzy, in the end it still just would mean that humanity require a larger input and a stronger guiding system, one that realises this phenomenon and capable of correcting it. Again this is possible due to the remarkable nature of man's faculty to change and grow.
Above all, every single psychological disorders (in fact all sickness and ilnesses) are all socio-bound and a direct consequence of the way we are living (for instence Autism is simply a saviour rejection of the world as is by the young intelligent mind), a byproduct of the insanity of our lives or even worse a product, an item that is manufactured in the laboretories porpusely.
We are not evil just very impressionable, much more than we even think!
I propose, that almost without exception everything that is not part of the instinctual package is pure culture-bound. We hate the rat and love the squirell on the bases of culture and upbringing and this alone.
Re: Hungarian
Hi Hungarian,
thanks for your post and sorry about the late answer. Winter with firewood-cutting and snowshovelling is upon me in my half-amish like life and takes a lot of time.
I have sofar here only looked at one part of existence; the macrocosmic, mechanical system of asymmetrically based emerging complexity. And because of the asymmetry eventually leading to a generally predatory universe, if nothing interferes.
It's not of much importance for the model I present, if Darwinism is partly incorrect or insufficient, but I find your argument interesting, that mankind in some ways over a long period may have influenced the behaviour of all life on our planet. While I find your introducing a more speculative angle on the lines of something anomalous (considered from a scientific perspective) valid, I can't agree with you for two more mundane reasons. Hive-insects, which are considerably older than mankind, actually practise slavery and sometimes make war-like invasions, even with other hives of their own species. And as you have opened for the anomaly-aspect, I find that the evidence for 'war in heaven', amongst ETs or hyperdimensional species is so convincing, that it's obvious, that not only our planet suffer from predation. This is a universal phenomenon.
I would be wary of ideas of the 'noble savage'. As an academic student of cultural anthropology I know, that such idealization is exaggerated. It's true, that many of these non-technological cultures had a much smaller impact on nature than the present western attitude, but many such cultures contained quite a few rather brutal facets in their social behaviour. Rape, cannibalism, death-penalty for breaking social taboos (even those without survival value).
As to the special possibilities of mankind (and probably other similar species in the universe) this is something I sofar haven't been able to find a reasonable answer to. The closest I can get is to ascribe it to an ability to make choices.
Now, finally, to the other much less gloomy part of existence. And it goes without saying, that I ofcourse share your ideals of peace, harmony etc., but I may differ in the methods of how to acchieve this. As is obvious, I don't believe in an automatic 'growing into' such a situation. Automatic/mechanistic processes lead generally to predation; the option we have to change this is based on conscious/aware choices, an 'un-natural' way going against the stream of cosmic pre-disposition. So I find ideas of a 'natural evolution' into less predation very debatable.
And the reason why mankind (and similar species) is in such a pitiable situation is simply, that most individuals only make ONE choice: NOT to choose anymore, but passively follow the easy, mechanic way. This is especially typical of our leaders, who are the most predatory amongst us, and from whom we can't expect any sympathy for a more symbiotic way of living.
While there are many religious, ideological and idealistic systems recommending constructive ethics, it's clear, that many such models very quick fall in the hands of predator-types and are twisted into something useless. An awakening, realisation, gnosis or whatever will in the end always be an individual process (though knowledge of ethic systems can ofcourse help).
On the abstract level this possibility of making non-mechanistic/non-predatory choices are exemplified in the micro-cosmic scale. And to acchieve it it's necessary to go beyond all 'conditioning', even the genetic/instinctive.
I suppose we could have been
I suppose we could have been conducting this conversation on the personal addresses but if it is fine with you i don't mind keepeing it this way in the open just for maybe someone finds it interesting.
I have to apologise too about my delayed comments. You see, for some years now i live in the forever sunshine so cold and bad whether is not an issue for me (i could not live in the winter again for too long). My delays are due to the increadible amount of sports that i am doing (rock climbing, indoor iceskating, boxing and street acrobatics) i practice these everyday, to keep me sharp and strong.
I think you and i have arrived to the point where some lines can be clearly drawn and one of them is, that we respectfully disagree with each other on the point, that i think humanity have been TURNED into the pitiable being and very importantly that i think that to walk out on this situation is NOT by any measure due to our systematic falier to make any competent choice but ONLY due to the insummerable forces by the governments to keep us here. I don't believe that we have a choice, that gift has been taken away from us (apart from a percentage of exception, the awakened ones)!
As far as the noble savage goes i can not say, that all the savages were noble because the Amazoninan indegineous or the Papuan (New- Guiniea) indegineous population is clearly savage and there you do find all the things you mentioned (although they are not the first cultures inhabited those areas). However as i wrote the Australian Abroginees were noble, very noble. I studied Anthropology in University too and I studied it in Australia and over there they have to make a strong emphasy on this issue (i doubt that it would be the case in the USA) simply because they live there( the white Australian teachers don't like talking about it though but they have to admit it!). Furthemore i had the luck of living with them!! in their own community (very few white man did that) and i had seen it with my own eyes, heard their stories from the elders who refuse to speak with academics about their past and never heard of the concept of the "Noble-Savage" so they could not make up stories because they wouldn't know exactly what to lie to. I know it with utter certainty that what i heard is true, that they were as you see it in the Movie "Avatar" (in fact i'd dare to say that AU Abroginees' past was used as inspiration for that movie as the main actor is has Abroginee ancestary). They were more "Noble" than you would think about the noble savage.
I truely wonder why You have not, even with a sentence argued about the first civilisation, that i wrote about, no response at all. That is a very strong argument against the "fallen man" theory.You probably forgotten it and went on saying, that the non-technological cultures had brutal social behaviours such as rape, cannibalism etc. No, this civilisation did not have any of those cultural facets. Peace and Harmony remember?
Here i have to mention something about Anthropology or any other Humane subjects being thought in University. Universities are not created for the purpose of free spirited Education, they are the product of a well organised central-propaganda. Real qusetions and doubts have no place in those institutions, the more you ask controversial questions the more you gonna be ignored and sidelined. The military strict Writing requirements and the very narrow perspectives are all part of the manipulation of the unsuspected students. You go and try to ask about Anarchy and you will receive the most unbelievable stupidity as a definition at best, you give it more attempt and you will find yourself out of the School. Marxism is being oversimplified to the point where you just can not believe what you hear and so on, the examples are endless. I knew this fact before i entered my studies, i just wanted to feel it on my skin and it was worst than i suspected it, i lingered just to learn about their sysytem. So all for this reason i have a real difficulty of debating with University people, they have been traumatised too much to let go and someone is goint to have to pay for their pain. You see, i was privately educated by renegade scientists, free thinkers, alternative perspectives, no formality. I know the difference.
With saying all this at least you won't freak out when I introduce you to one of my wacko theories very briefly, which explains to some degree my vision of the past before humanity arrived. This is purely my thoughts don't have to take it too seriously. You probably heard of the problem where you asked ; weather there is a sound or not of a branch falling to the ground if there is nobody on the planet to hear it. Does it make a sound or it doesn't? well, my answer is that it does not as the sound is a certain wave-length picked up by the ear and translated by the mind into the thing we call sound. So the sound does not exist before there is anybody hear it. Well, run this logic foreward and i claim that there is nothing, i reapeat nothing, that we can call actual unless there is a mind to translate it into being. According this, there is no actual history on Earth before the Human Specie has arrive with it's fully functional consciousness or alternatively, consciousness is embodied in Nature somewhere else too (maybe everywhere and in everything). The first alternative is not impossible to consider with validity but does sound too wacko, if humanity triggered the actual world around us, that would mean that all evolution has only happened in potential and came in to being only as consciousness developed. The other is that there has to be a fully functional consciousness already present somewhere on the planet way before humanity.
i wrote about this also to see what you think of this or how would you add to it or take away.
As far as our leaders go, i have the theory that they are selected by their own self-maintaining system, which almost like a super computer has basically created itself, it's probably called greed, in a way by which the system ensures, that whoever is selected can never leave and just find a new way of living. They are not choosing to do all the things they will but once you enter that circle you must act according to it's requirements without failer. So in a sense it is the system that chooses not the individual.
I realise that my Utopia is very idealistic at its best but it isn't refering to an actual plan or possibility merely touched upon the potential that lies in the nature of man.
To me the chenge to come will not be individually triggered, not even social but something Global on the line of the 2012 spirit. It in my mind will probably be electro-magnetic in nature, will probably embodie the golden ratio somehow and i reckon it will be sudden.
you have to know that i really appreciate our exchange
Re: Hungarian
Dear Hungarian,
it was not my intention to ignore your points (on human 'ur-harmony' and australian aborigines), I just wanted to make a functional frame before commenting on them. I've found, that a, as precise as possible, semantic and epistemological conceptual frame is a MUST in any meaningful search for knowledge.
Maybe you can agree on my suggestion, that the (from one perspective) opposite extremes 'symbiosis' and 'predation' describe a fundamental aspect of what human beings experience as existence. Hoping you'll agree, I'll prematurely continue, step by step, from this assumption.
I'll not deny the existence of the 'ur-harmony' you mentioned, I see it is an expression of the potential or option of symbiosis. My opinion on it is, that while we find predation in abundance, TRUE symbiosis is rather uncommon in cosmic manifestations.
We have at least three ways of examining this. I have already talked about the cosmological approach, in which asymmetric polarization in the basic structure of cosmos form the starting-point of predation.
Another way is to compare 'symbiosis' and 'predation'. The main difference on how cosmic manifestations relate to each other in symbiotic and predatory systems is the very strange observation, that symbiotic systems are more 'energy efficient' (less loss of energy from non-essential side-effects), and seen from a 'cosmos preserving perspective' this means less enthropy. I.e. cosmos will last longer with symbiotic systems. Inversely predation will result in a quicker termination of cosmos on a general scale. Whereas predation locally can produce a quick non-enthropic situation, where 'speed' is the important factor rather than longlasting effect.
(If local, short-termed solutions are more important than longlasting effects, this could imply something about 'intent' in cosmogonic speculations).
That predation obviously also results in much more 'suffering' than symbiosis is another observation making predation a peculiar 'choice' of a possible 'intent' in cosmos creation.
The third way of looking at symbiosis/predation is to find the transistion point between the two systems in the human sphere of existence. When and how did symbiosis change into predation? It's not sufficient to say, that 'somebody' did it, because the next question would naturally be why the original 'victims' of the first predators passively accepted such a change. And why do most victims these days still passively accept social predation, even when they CAN say no. Maybe this will be your favourite perspective, and in the following discussion I already see 'herdmind' etc as a part. (Are you familiar with the english author Colin Wilson? The originator of 'the outsider' concept. He'll be relevant).
As to the 'sound of a falling tree', this is less complicated, because the whole idea (as adapted to western interpretations) turns around a typical western 'species-centria'. It's an anthropomorfication of a cosmic principle. The cosmic structure exists through and defines itself by polarized manifestations. E.g. when particles pop in and out of cosmic existence, they do it as counter-points to other particles; electrons and quarks are only two sides of the same coin etc. So when the activity of making a sound takes place, such a complex mechanism as human observance isn't necessary for this sound to exist. Anything, down to a subatomic particle, will relate to the sound and thus make it 'exist'. Cosmos can very well exist totally without mankind, making its sounds and whatever, without our participation. This stressing human importance is just a doctrinal residue from christianity, where we are 'special'.
Dear Bogomil It has been
Dear Bogomil
It has been very educational to "talk" with you. It has been beneficial for me mostly because i have again experienced how it feels to exchange opinions with someone who is very intelligent and knowledgable, i cherish both of this feature of yours. i have learnt from our correspondence not so much on the issues we touched upon but mainly about how i react with my thoughts to responses like yours. I develop some good and some not so good traits as i noticed.
My last letter was a bit like a test for you where mostly i wanted to measure the size of the stage on which we can "move" around, because i have noticed that our exchange has been circleing back into a loop. There is nothing wrong with that we just both seem to stick to our guns and our perspectives.
Your last letter made me finaly aware that perhaps we'd better to give this correspondence some space and time to digest it's content.
I totaly disagree with you on all of your points, that was presented in your last letter.
As far as the tree making a sound in the forest without anybody hearing it: There is NO sound in space, we know that for sure! Sound requires air to propagate through. The components of the thing called 'sound' is a wave of a certain frequency, air to carry the wave and most importantly the ear mecanism together with a minimum of low level of consciousness to pick up on the wave and translate it into 'sound'. Any of these components are missing and there is NO sound. Existence is a slippery-slide, the Uncertainity Principle leaves no doubt, that there are no Certainties when it comes to material real-ness. The atoms are almost entirely empty and the particles are not actually particles, they are only "acting", "pretending" to be something because of our "interference". A mere game of vibrations that we interfering with. In my theory, there is no sound nor there is anything else that is actual without the translating, interfering agent, which is US. We are not aware of reality, we are creating it!
There isn't anything revolutionary about this though, Michael Talbot worked and written about this 20 years ago already and countless other serious physisists worked on it and they all see the world as a solid-state illusion, not made-up at all of measurable and fixed elements (in fact particle physics is dying as a theoritical subject). The other extremely important "speculation" is , that TIME itself as some kind of a fourth dimension is also an illusion. This is also written and chewed upon by myriad of "speculatory scientists". It has been proposed , that all the time happens at the same time or at once, that TIME does not exist. Anyway what i am getting at is, that it's not propostorous to think of evolution or human history as an involuntary self-bullshit, an extravagant script ,a fantasy, a part of our cognitive matrix.
So not only, that 'sound' is not independent of the existence of humans and the result of particles relating to each other as you said but nothing is. Everything, that makes up reality including the Cosmos, is pure fantasy, exclusively dependent on the translating mechanism of the fully functional consciousness!!. Did you ever wonder why is space impossibly big, too big to make any sense or to do anything with human existence, and why looking into the depth of matter we end up with incoherent results also totaly void of human existence? How about wondering why dreams do not have a beginning nor an end. Well, nor does Reality have a beginning or an end Dreams and 'Reality' are earily similar in many fundamental way, the most important is that they are not meant to be broken down to their final elements and they are both a result of a consciousness at work! With "reality' no matter how much you try, in the end it always slips away from a satifying end result. Exploring space we always find another galaxy 'on the top' of the other 200 odd thousand already mapped with billions of stars in it, the distances are just ridiculous and the forces and the phenomenons are entirely alien. Examining the micro world we always discover an ever smaller completely shady and undescribable something, that is appearently links to the previously discovered but still totally unclear "larger" unit. The more we learn in both directions the less we end up knowing. Again, just like dreams about ,which some of the gratest minds in 7000 years came up with close to nothing. Reality is more "tricky" than dreams, with the dreams we know it pretty fast, that it's not gonna let us get any closer, but Reality is different, it teases us, it makes us think we got a chance, scientists do really think, that they are getting closer to knowing. However, I do believe, that we can analyse Reality, a Dream or a Lie but in the end we will gain no certain knowledge of any of these realms. They are simply not meant to be broken down because they are all made up, ultimately just a product of human making, one way or another.
Now, after all of this, why people follow passively the evil doers, when they could say No as you write: we had visited this same point about four times now, if you read Rushkoff on the other thread about the history of money then you do realise that there are plenty of great thinkers dismissing the concept of free will, when it comes to social choices. No, they can not say No because they are brainwashed not to understand what they have to say No to, for them war and prisons are good and whoever doesn't think that is bad and the enemy or whatever.
Also, that maybe that we find more example of predation and less for symbiosis but the important ones, the first civilisation and the longest living culture are both distinctly sybiotic.
Thanks for every word of yours again!!
Re: Hungarian
your essay Christopher
THANK YOU!!!!