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Money: A New Beginning (Part 2)

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Prosperity is relating, not acquiring.

– Tom Brown, Jr.

 

Our present monetary system generates a necessity for endless growth, embodies linear thinking, defies the cyclical patterns of nature, and drives the relentless conversion of all forms of wealth into currency. Furthermore, the concept of “interest” is the wellspring of our economy's ever-intensifying competition, systemic scarcity, and concentration of wealth. Interest is tied into how we see ourselves as separate, competing subjects seeking to gather more and more of the world within the boundaries of "mine." Today, however, the human identity is undergoing a profound metamorphosis. Part of this shift in our conception of self and world will be a new system of money consonant with the new human being.

Given the determining role of interest, the first alternative currency system to consider is one that structurally eliminates it. One such system, called Frei Geld or "free-money" was proposed in 1906 by Silvio Gesell in The Natural Economic Order. Gesell's free-money bears a form of negative interest called demurrage. Periodically, a stamp costing a tiny fraction of the currency's denomination must be affixed to it, in effect a "user fee" or a "maintenance cost"; another way to look at it is that the currency "goes bad" – depreciates in value – as it ages. (Of course, today this would be done electronically.)

If this sounds like a radical proposal that could never work, it may surprise you to learn that no less an authority than John Maynard Keynes praised the theoretical soundness of Gesell's ideas (with one critical caveat [1]). What's more, the system was actually tried out with great success, and is again in use today.

The best-known example was instituted in the town of Worgl, Austria, in 1932. To remain valid, each piece of this locally-issued currency required a monthly stamp costing 1% of its face value. This anti-hoarding measure spurred citizens to spend their money quickly, even to pay their taxes early. Instead of generating interest and growing, accumulation of wealth became a burden—much like possessions are a burden to the nomadic hunter-gatherer. Worgl's economy took off; the unemployment rate plummeted even as the rest of the country slipped into a deepening depression; public works were completed, and prosperity continued until the Worgl currency (and hundreds of imitators) were outlawed in 1933 at the behest of a threatened central bank.[2]

A similar story transpired in the United States. With national currency evaporating through an epidemic of bank failures, citizens and local governments created their own. By 1933, several hundred cities and even states were preparing to launch, or had already launched, "emergency currencies." [3] Many of these were stamp scrips like the Worgl currency. Despite the vigorous advocacy of prominent economist Irving Fisher, Roosevelt banned all emergency currencies when he launched the New Deal and declared a bank holiday in March, 1933, fearing the new currencies' decentralizing effects. [4]

 

 

Today we are at the brink of a similar crisis, and face a similar choice between shoring up the old world through an intensification of centralized control or letting go of control and stepping into the new. It is important to understand that the consequences of a demurrage-based currency system would be profound, encompassing economic, social, psychological, and spiritual dimensions. Money is so fundamental, so defining of our civilization, that it would be naive to hope for any authentic shift in the way we exist in the world that did not involve a fundamental shift in money as well.

Conceptually, demurrage works by freeing material goods which are subject to natural cyclic processes of renewal and decay from their linkage with a money that only grows, exponentially, over time. As established in Part 1 of this text, this dynamic is driving us toward ruin in the exhaustion of all social, cultural, natural, and spiritual wealth. Demurrage currency merely subjects money to the same laws as natural commodities, whose continuing value requires maintenance. Gesell writes:

Gold does not harmonize with the character of our goods. Gold and straw, gold and petrol, gold and guano, gold and bricks, gold and iron, gold and hides! Only a wild fancy, a monstrous hallucination, only the doctrine of "value" can bridge the gulf. Commodities in general, straw, petrol, guano and the rest can be safely exchanged only when everyone is indifferent as to whether he possesses money or goods, and that is possible only if money is afflicted with all the defects inherent in our products. That is obvious. Our goods rot, decay, break, rust, so only if money has equally disagreeable, loss-involving properties can it effect exchange rapidly, securely and cheaply. For such money can never, on any account, be preferred by anyone to goods.

Only money that goes out of date like a newspaper, rots like potatoes, rusts like iron, evaporates like ether, is capable of standing the test as an instrument for the exchange of potatoes, newspapers, iron and ether. For such money is not preferred to goods either by the purchaser or the seller. We then part with our goods for money only because we need the money as a means of exchange, not because we expect an advantage from possession of the money. [5]

In other words, demurrage redefines money as a medium of exchange instead of being a store of value. No longer is money an exception to the universal tendency in nature toward rust, mold, rot and decay—that is, toward the recycling of resources. No longer does money perpetuate a human realm separate from nature.

Gesell's phrase, "... a monstrous hallucination, the doctrine of 'value'..." hints at another effect of demurrage—it makes us question the notion of “value.” Value assigns to each object in the world a number. It associates an abstraction, changeless and independent, with that which always changes and that exists in relationship to all else. It is part of humanity's descent into representation, the reduction of the world into a data set. Demurrage reverses this thinking and removes an important boundary between the human realm and the natural realm. When money is no longer preferred to goods, we will lose the habit of defining a thing by how much it is worth.

Whereas interest promotes the discounting of future cash flows, demurrage encourages long-term thinking. In present-day accounting, a forest that has the capacity to generate one million dollars a year every year into the foreseeable future is considered more valuable if immediately cut down for a profit of 50 million dollars. (The net present value of the sustainable forest calculated at a discount rate of 5% is only $20 million.) This state of affairs results in the infamously short-sighted behavior of corporations that sacrifice (even their own) long-term well-being for the short-term results of the fiscal quarter. Such behavior is perfectly rational in an interest-based economy, but in a demurrage system, pure self-interest would dictate that the forest be preserved. No longer would greed motivate the robbing of the future for the benefit of the present. The exponential discounting of future cash flows implies the "cashing in" of the entire earth as opposed to an immediate wholesale “liquidation” of our remaining resources.

Whereas interest tends to concentrate wealth, demurrage promotes its distribution. In any economy with a specialization of labor beyond the family level, human beings need to perform exchanges in order to thrive. Both interest and demurrage represent a fee for the use of money, but the key difference is that in the former system, the fee accrues to those who already have money, while in the latter system it is levied upon them. Wealth comes with a high maintenance cost, thereby recreating the dynamics that governed hunter-gatherer attitudes toward accumulations of possessions.

Whereas security in an interest-based system comes from accumulating money, in a demurrage system it comes from having productive channels through which to direct it – that is, to become a nexus of the flow of wealth and not a point for its accumulation. In other words, it puts the focus on relationships, not on "having". The demurrage system accords with a different sense of self, affirmed not by enclosing more and more of the world within the confines of me and mine, but by developing and deepening relationships with others. It encourages reciprocation, sharing, and the rapid circulation of wealth.

In today's system, it is much better to have a thousand dollars than it is for ten people to owe you a hundred dollars. In a demurrage system the opposite is true. Since money decays with time, if I have some money I'm not using right now, I am happy to lend it to you, just as if I had more bread than I could eat, I would give you some. If I need some in the future, I can call in my obligations or create new ones with anyone within my network who has more money than he or she needs to meet immediate needs. As Gesell put it:

With the introduction of Free-Money, money has been reduced to the rank of umbrellas; friends and acquaintances assist each other mutually as a matter of course with loans of money. No one keeps, or can keep, reserves of money, since money is under compulsion to circulate. But just because no one can form reserves of money, no reserves are needed. For the circulation of money is regular and uninterrupted.[6]

No longer would money be a scarce commodity, hoarded and kept away from others; rather it would tend to circulate at the maximum possible "velocity". The issuer would ensure stable prices (P) according to the equation of exchange (MV=PQ) by regulating the amount of currency in circulation (M) to correspond to total real economic output (Q). The same result could be achieved by linking the currency to a basket of commodities whose level corresponds to overall economic activity, as proposed by Bernard Lietaer.

The dynamics of a demurrage-based currency system ensure a sufficient amount for all. This is in contradiction to today's economy in which a surfeit of material goods is coupled with their grossly unequal distribution. Hence the deeper contradiction in which, on the one hand, there are hundreds of millions of people who are unemployed or engaged in trivial, meaningless jobs, while on the other hand there is much important, meaningful work left undone—highlighting a disconnect between human creativity and human needs. "With Free-Money demand is inseparable from money, it is no longer a manifestation of the will of the possessors of money. Free-Money is not the instrument of demand, but demand itself, demand materialized and meeting, on an equal footing, supply, which always was, and remains, something material."[7]

When I look at the poverty of this world, the anxiety, the desperate and destructive pursuit of a fraudulent dream of security, I can hardly stifle a howl of protest. Not because it is unjust, though it is, but because it is so unnecessary! We live, after all, in a world of plenty, and we always have. The present money system and underneath it, the enclosure of the wild into the exclusively owned, has created artificial scarcity where none need exist. It is not food or any other necessity that is scarce; it is money, whose built-in scarcity induces the same in everything else.

In a highly specialized, technological society, most of us need to perform exchanges to live. To do so we need a medium of exchange – money. Some people, noting this inescapable fact, can see no alternative but to return to a primitive society, to undo the millennia-long course of civilization, which they quite understandably view as an enormous mistake. The scenario changes if money is used to recreate rather than destroy the social relations of a hunter-gatherer. In those societies, when a hunter killed a large animal, he or she would give away most of the meat, dividing it according to kinship status, personal affection, and need. As with demurrage money, it was much better to have lots of people "owe you one" than it was to have a big pile of rotting meat, or even of dried jerky that had to be transported or secured. Why would you even want to, when your community is as generous to you as you are to it? Security came from sharing. The good luck of your neighbor was your own good luck as well. If you came across an unexpected large source of wealth, you threw a huge party. As a member of the Pirahã tribe explained it when questioned about food storage: "I store meat in the belly of my brother."[8]

A negative-interest currency is a step toward the gift economies of yore that strengthen and define communities. Describing Lewis Hyde's theory of the gift, author Jessica Prentice writes, "Part of the sacred/erotic energy of gifts is that the receiver cannot accumulate them—either a gift needs to be passed on, or another gift needs to be given so that the gift-giving energy keeps moving. Gifts are about flow, and they are meant to circulate."[9] This is a perfect description of free-money, which like a gift collecting dust in the closet loses its value when kept unused. Free-money reverses the compulsion to constantly expand and fortify the accumulation of the private, the realm of me and mine. Just as interest shrinks the circle of self until we are left with the alienated, mercenary ego of modern civilization, demurrage, the opposite of interest, widens it to reunite us with community and all humanity, ending the artificial scarcity and competition of the Age of Usury.

Demurrage recreates, in the realm of money, the hunter-gatherer's disinclination toward food storage or other material accumulation. It resurrects the ancient hunter-gatherer mentality of abundance, in which sharing is easy and natural, in which there is no mad scramble to enclose the world. It promises a return in spirit to the "original affluent society" of Marshall Sahlins, but at a higher order of complexity. It is not a technological return to the Stone Age, as some primitivists envision after the collapse, but a spiritual return.

Consider the !Kung concept of wealth, explored in this exchange between anthropologist Richard Lee and a !Kung man, !Xoma:

I asked !Xoma, ‘What makes a man a //kaiha [rich man]—if he has many bags of //kai [beads and other valuables] in his hut?’

‘Holding //kai does not make you a //kaiha,’ replied !Xoma. ‘It is when someone makes many goods travel around that we might call him //kaiha.’

What !Xoma seemed to be saying was that it wasn't the number of your goods that constituted your wealth, it was the number of your friends. The wealthy person was measured by the frequency of his or her transactions and not by the inventory of goods on hand. [10]

Wealth in a demurrage system evolves into something akin to the model of the Pacific Northwest or Melanesia, in which a leader "acts as a shunting station for goods flowing reciprocally between his own and other like groups of society."[11] Status was not associated with the accumulation of money or possessions, but rather with a huge responsibility for generosity. Can you picture a society in which prestige, power, and leadership were accorded to those with the greatest inclination and capacity to give?

In a system where affluence comes from sharing, our focus is no longer on how to make a living. We focus instead on how to best give of our gifts. A corollary is that money and art are no longer at odds.

Imagine a life where you simply focus on your art, on your gifts, on being of service, in the serene knowledge that your needs will automatically be fulfilled as a matter of course--such an economy is possible. In it, competition is reduced to its proper domain: a yearning for excellence in all that we do. In it, productive work comes from a desire to create a more beautiful world, not to own it; to live and not just survive. We all know in our hearts such an economy is possible. We know it in our dreams, those we deny because we have to "make a living". Life becomes a grim business, a struggle. The Age of Usury presents us with an ineluctable pressure that we can resist but never escape: to make a living is to deny art, purpose, and beauty.

The locution "cannot afford to" reveals just how often money impedes our innate tendencies toward kindness, generosity, leisure, and creativity. Interest-money generates the greed that we mistake as human nature and perpetuates the illusion that security and wealth come from gathering more and more of the world unto the self, carving out a larger and larger exclusive province of "me" at the expense of every other living person, animal, plant, and ecosystem. As well it seems to directly contradict the teaching of karma, which says that what we do to the world, we do to ourselves. In our current money system, giving out to the world means less for me, not more! Free-money reverses this role and brings money into line with karma, reinforcing rather than denying its fundamental principle that by enriching the world we enrich ourselves.

When wealth is separate from accumulation but refers to a richness of relationships, each person's wealth makes everyone wealthier. Art will no longer be limited by what we can afford, for money will be art's ally not its enemy. Business will be the seeking of ways to bestow wealth upon others rather than the stripping of wealth from others. No longer, then, will our lives be full of cheap stuff. Work will no longer be bound to the search for money, but will seek out ways to best serve each other and the world, each according to our unique gifts and temperament. That will be, self-evidently, the way toward riches—both spiritual and financial, for no longer will the two be in conflict.

I would like to comment on the popular New Age idea of "prosperity programming," "opening to the flow of abundance," which is to say, becoming rich through the power of positive thinking. These ideas come from a valid source – the realization that the scarcity of our world is an artifact of our collective beliefs, and not the fundamental reality. However, they are inherently inconsistent with the money system we have today. One of the principles of prosperity programming is to let go of the guilt stemming from the belief that you can only be wealthy if another is poor; that more for me is less for you. The problem, illustrated in Part 1 of this essay, is that under today's money system it is true! More for me IS less for "you". The monetized realm grows at the expense of nature, culture, health, and spirit. The guilt we feel around money is quite justified. Certainly, we can create beautiful things, worthy organizations, noble causes with money, but on some level we are robbing Peter to pay Paul. Please understand that I am not suggesting that you not open to the flow of abundance. On the contrary, when enough people do this, the money system will change to conform to the new belief. Today's money system rests on a foundation of Separation. It is as much an effect as it is a cause of our perception that we are discrete and separate subjects in a universe that is Other. Opening to abundance can only happen when we let go of this identity and open to the richness of our true, connected being. This new identity wants no part of usury.

My dear reader, think about it: Is it really who you are to say, "I will lend you money -- but only if you give me even more in return"? When we need money to live, is that not a formula for slavery? Significantly, the forgiveness of debts for which Solon was famous was prompted in part by the indebted servitude of a growing proportion of the population. Today, young people feel enslaved to their college loans, householders to their mortgages, and entire Third World nations to their foreign debt. Interest is slavery. And since the condition of slavery demeans the slaveholder as much as the slave, in our hearts we want none of it.

The metamorphosis of the human sense of self, the transition from an Age of Separation to an Age of Reunion, is underway today, propelled by a convergence of crises that is rendering obsolete the old self, and the civilization that rests upon it. Each crisis springs from a different facet of separation; each facet of separation contains within it the seed of its own demise. Such is today's financial crisis, the culmination of a Ponzi scheme centuries in the making and based on the delusion that a finite planet can support exponential increase forever. Today, unless we find as yet undreamed of sources of natural and social capital to incinerate, that bubble is about to burst.

The longer we hang on, the harder we scramble to apply one technical fix after another to our tottering money system, the more severe the crisis and its subsequent dislocation will be. The eventual result, however, is assured: a new system of money will emerge that is aligned with the priorities of the connected, interdependent self: sustainability, beauty, and wholeness.

Demurrage-based currency is only part of this transition. Due to space considerations I have ignored key pieces of an economy of Reunion, such as full-cost accounting, JAK banking, local currencies, mutual credit currencies, the leasing economy, P2P economics, and industrial ecology. Yet demurrage is the key. An economy that emulates ecological principles cannot rest on a money system that requires exponential growth. The two are inimical. While usury still reigns, all the other pieces will remain marginal. Nonetheless, the efforts of visionaries such as E.F. Schumacher, Paul Hawken, Herman Daly, and countless others are not in vain. They have planted the seeds for a new kind of economy that will heal our ravaged earth.

Money in the Age of Reunion will be an agent for the development of social, cultural, natural, and spiritual capital, and not their consumption. It will be a mechanism for the sharing of wealth and not its accumulation. It will be a means for the creation of beauty, not its diminishment. It will be a barrier to greed and not an incentive. It will encourage joyful creative work, and not necessitate "jobs". It will reinforce the cyclical processes of nature, and not violate them. And it will accompany a shift in consciousness that we are beginning to experience today, a shift toward a connected self in love with the world. That, after all, is the true self, and that is what we will return to as the pretense of everlasting increase collapses.


Notes

[1] Keynes discusses Gesell's work in his 1936 classic The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money. He says that the demurrage solution is sound but incomplete. Since currency is not alone in having a liquidity premium, the danger in a demurrage system would be that other forms of money, such as marginal reserve bank-money and commercial paper, would take over the role currency exercises today, with similar results. This is not a theoretically insuperable difficulty, but it does require a more comprehensive transformation in money than I can describe in this space.

[2] This history draws on Bernard Lietaer's 2001 book The Future of Money.

[3] A list and description appears in Stamp Scrip. Irving Fisher, LL.D. New York, Adelphi Company, 1933

[4] Birch, Dave. "When Monopoly money was real", Digital Money Forum, June 12, 2007, http://digitaldebateblogs.typepad.com/digital_money/2007/06/when_monopoly_m.html

[5] Gesell, Silvio. The Natural Economic Order, 1906. Trans. Philip Pye. Ch. 4.1

[6] Gesell, Ch. 5.5. Gesell also advocated the abolition of land ownership.

[7]Gesell, ch. 4.4

[8] Everett, Daniel L., "Cultural Constraints on Grammar and Cognition in Pirahã: Another Look at the Design Features of Human Language" Current Anthropology, Aug-Oct 2005. Vol.46, No. 4

[9] Prentice, Jessica. Stirring the Cauldron – New Egg Moon, April 13, 2005. www.wisefoodways.com

[10] Lee, Richard. The Dobe !Kung. P. 101

[11] Sahlins, Marshall. Stone Age Economics, p. 209

Comments

Fascinating.

I keep re-reading Part 1, which makes a staggering amount of sense.

Part 2 is harder to digest. Even if the demurrage system can work on a practical level, how do you replace the current system?

Or do you foresee it coming about by necessity only after there is some kind of total, catastrophic, irreversible collapse of the current system?

the transition

Yes, basically it will remain "complementary" and marginal until the main currency system collapses, which is not too far-fetched a possibility! In fact, unless you believe that exponential growth can be maintained for eternity, such a collapse is inevitable.  

Charles Eisenstein

www.ascentofhumanity.com 

the Keynes caveat

Charles if you could also expand a bit on how to address the issues raised in the Keynes footnote. How to avoid the worst aspects of the current system cropping up in another guise in a demurrage system.

Keynes...

 

First let me say that despite extensive research, I have not found any real investigation of these issues by a qualified economist. So I'm on my own here and still clarifying my thinking. The main issue is the liquidity premium for cash: if this were removed, what would stop a shadow currency from emerging in the form of some other liquid commodity? A secondary issue, which Keynes did not cite, is what would prevent the same dynamics from emerging if fractional reserve banking still could create new money by issuing negative-interest loans at a rate smaller than the demurrage rate?

Ha ha, actually I just started writing out the answer and it is turning into a whole new essay involving some deep and fascinating issues. It will take a couple hours, which I don't have right now. But if enough people are interested, I will work on it and put it up on my website. Email me if you are interested at charles "at" panenthea dot com.
Charles  www.ascentofhumanity.com 

 

money

"money" is an emergent phenomenon.  We use government currency for most things because the government requires us to pay our taxes in its currency.  If ever the government breaks the rules of money, people will use it only to pay their government debts.  Consequently, demurrage, or inflation, only works if you have a monopoly on money (which the government does).  Inflate too much, and you find that people start using other things as money.

 

Money is that thing which people will always accept as barter for something else.  If you start from that understanding, you'll find that most of these two postings don't make any sense.

 

It will also help in curbing

It will also help in curbing the financial barrier to educational resources as students who will be buying books, will be capable of sharing the PDF versions of the books online with the other children for no charge at all.Debt consolidation

Local Currency

It's back:

"Residents from the Milwaukee neighborhoods of Riverwest and East Side are scheduled to meet Wednesday to discuss printing their own money. The idea is that the local cash could be used at neighborhood stores and businesses, thus encouraging local spending. The result, supporters hope, would be a bustling local economy, even as the rest of the nation deals with a recession."

Stone Age Economics

As A.N. Other has said ~ "...the stone age did not end because we ran out of stones."

Having deliberatley stepped into a crack I found in mainstreem society, I am learing to live more simply with more friends and more meaningful challenges than I ever had there.

V well written essays Charles. Bravo!

Aum

Yes, but what is the root cause

I agree in principle that today's economic and financial systems promote greed, usury and hoarding. It also promotes competition and increases the division between the haves and have nots. Yet, is this not but a reflection of something else, some dark shadow deep within our collective human psyche?

I am usually very skeptical with the outside to inside approach, meaning any theory that says that if we change the outside, ie government and external systems, people will then change internally to the better. But what i have observed by experience is that WE create our reality. If we have greed, usury, envy, jelaousy, within us, this will find a way to manifest no matter what system is imposed on us. We will find a way to corrupt that system to suit our needs. Look at what happened with Marxism and the communist movement. In principle it is a sound system, yet in practice it failed.

And why? Because we are sick, we are sick to the bone, sick in spirit and we need to heal. After healing occurs we will naturally manifest a system that is in harmony with nature, it will require no effort at all.

Our great fallacy is that we believe that we can not heal, we assume that greed, envy, etc is part of us and therefore we must create external systems to keep those tendencies in check. But i tell you, these negative tendencies are not part of who we are AS TRUE HUMAN BEINGS. That is the first step to healing, realize this. From then on we can start working on coming back to our senses and out of the madness.

So how do we heal? One realize you are sick. Two take steps to heal, every one has a different path. My path has been abandoning my job in a large corporation, traveling for a few months in the world and getting in touch with my higher self, becoming a massage therapist and health educator, changing my eating habits to whole vegetarian organic foods, abandoning spices, salt and sugar, and anything processed, growing my own food, painting singing and playing music, giving more, taking up yoga and meditation, fasting, not buying anything that will produce waste, reducing my wants, killing my worries.

As for what you need to do, you already know. The system, money and all, will naturally reflect your new state of BEING.

The Root Cause

I agree with this comment completely. The root cause is what I call Separation. Greed, and the money system we have today, is a symptom, a result of Separation. The Separation is a separation from most of what we are, separation from our true being. The tiny shred of self that remains to us in modern society is perpetually starving to return, to reunite with its true vastness. This is the hunger, a hunger for lost beingness, that manifests as greed and a consciousness of scarcity. I think I wrote about this in Part 1; it is also a recurrent theme in The Ascent of Humanity. 

Charles Eisenstein

www.ascentofhumanity.com 

I think that Ron Paul has a

I think that Ron Paul has a line on an alternative to the currency crisis and that is to allow competing currencies. While it's no fix all it's a step in the right direction. I would also refer you all to the Austrian Economists such as von Mises. Basically the Fed has a monopoly on money(pun half intended!) and doesn't allow anyone else to print anything resembling money. But also, you technically aren't allowed, then, to be paid by your employer in anything but Fed notes, which aren't backed by anything but digits and a promise to pay at some later date. There is a lot to go into on this subject, but one must also consider that to replace the currency we have you have to have something better, and right now the dollar is still the most widely accepted currency. How long that will last seems shaky right now, let us hope that it goes on for quite some time because otherwise we will get the Amero, along with a lot of other baggage that none of us want right now! I say have currencies and bring back the barter system as well.

you CAN print money

Actually, anyone can print their own money; there is no law against it, and your employer CAN pay you in alternatively currency if you agree. In fact there are dozens of local currencies in use in the United States today, and hundreds more non-national currencies worldwide, if not thousands. The main means of suppression is that transactions in these complementary currencies are subject to taxation (sales and income) which must be paid in national currency, thus forcing us to operate at least in part in US dollars.

Charles Eisenstein

www.ascentofhumanity.com 

transition into demurrage system

Hey Chuck good article, I have thought a lot about this subject in the past two years since leaving penn state. I have had many conversations on this subject and taking other’s ideas in corridination with my own and some chuck’s class, I believe with a wide spread three tiered approach could make a segue to a demurrage system or even make a demurrage system not necessary.

1) Karmatic consumerism - This idea states that the only votes we have in a consumeristic economy are on what we decide to purchase. Therefore if we support unethical, environment bashing companies it is as bad if we do it ourselves. Now this is a hard concept to swallow but I think that major portion of the responsibility must be put on the consumers not only the anonymous corporations who’s hierarchical organization structure, which only demands profit, allows for unethical and anti-environmental decisions. Which leads into the next tier:

2) Common Ownership Corporations: this idea represents that smaller corporate unions are not only more efficient then large corporations but quality will increase especially when people profit directly from their actions. This is extended in the thought that communism works if and only if direct results of your actions can be seen. Also there is a need for corporate responsibility that does not come from current corporate structures considering that a number comes down from the top and people lower down the chain need to anything necessary to meet that number.

3) Corporate Dollars exchange: This concept is an alternative to JAK banks and lending in general. Companies can give corporate dollars which are their own currency for their own goods and services. A perfect example of this our today’s gift cards. i.e. Wendy’s trades 100 wendy’s dollars for 100 microsoft dollars, this way hording corporate dollars, just like the demurrage system is not advantageous. Also continuing with this example wendy’s wants to build another store well they can pay the construction workers in wendy’s dollars that they may not even have yet and not have to pay interest on their initial expense.

Chuck let me know what you think --Bryan Colligan

Yes!!!

Thank you for proposing this, Jennifer, I was having almost the same thought. For a complementary currency to work, you have to have a community that agrees to use it, and you have to have a variety of needs that can be met from within that community. Then the currency can bring creativity and need together. I hadn't thought of micro-patronage, though that is a good idea. I had been thinking in terms of a full-fledged economic currency that people could use to buy and sell goods and services within the RS community. Money, as Leitaer points out, is nothing more than an agreement to use something as a medium of exchange. It has value because we agree it has value. Most complementary currencies today are local, and indeed are intended to strengthen local economies over the global one. The time has perhaps come to launch currencies within "localities" that are not geographical, but rather on line. I think that social networking is in the works for Reality Sandwich; perhaps a currency launch can accompany it someday?

 

Charles Eisenstein

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com 

evolver currency

Yes, yes, we absolutely want to do this, it is one of our central ideas. We will need to study the tax implications, and also build the website infrastructure for this, which requires first turning this into a sustainable company with a decent revenue stream so we can raise the investment necessary to do deeper tech development projects.

I would love to hear more thoughts on how this alternative exchange currence could be best designed. There is the "time dollars" model. Would that be integrated with demurrage?

"Will the transformation."-Rilke

money has value

Money has value not because "we" think it has value, but because at least one person is willing to take our money ijn trade for something ELSE that we value.  As long as someone else values your money, it still has value even if you think it's fishwrap.

Cool

Propaganda Anonymous Hey Charles. Like the piece, but I like you responding to every additional post even more.

Ezra Pound was super into Gessel's work. Pound seemed also very influenced by Henry George, the idea of Social Capital, as well bunches more.

I am super into the idea of negative-interest currency systems. And as you say, Irving Fischer was so awed by Gessel's system he started his own scheme here in the states. Which was pretty huge back then because Irving was just as well known and respected as Keynes was. But most people today only 'know' the name of Keynes.

When the Great Depression hit here in the 30's many alternative currencies cropped up in the US. Roosevelt got word of this and he took action to stop communities from making alternative forms of currency.

Which raises the question that many great thinkers have debated before us. How does all this decentralization happen in such a way that won't leave a leaking hole.

Meaning, Benjamin Tucker debated Henry George in his magazine 'The Egoist' (I think that was the name) about which area should be best 'liberated' Currency and/or Land.

Tucker believed that some reasons that the economy wasn't really working in the way Adam Smith proposed because there were four 'usuries' that kept our system from being a truly Free Market.

These were 1. Land 2.Patents 3. Tariffs 4. Currency

As long as some 'authority' held a tight grip upon any and all these four things, liberation was far off.

So I'm hearing lots about Alternative Currencies these days, which is great!

For me I'm also tempering this with a deeper understanding of Land politics And the notion of Patent monopolies And how countries use Tariffs as a weapon..

Cheers Charles

Prop

Land

Yes, I actually had a paragraph about Fisher that I deleted to keep the article succinct. He was a Yale economist, prominent in the 1930s, and actually published a booklet promoting Free-money, known in the U.S. as stamp-scrip.  http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~roehrigw/fisher/. This was a practical manual; I haven't found any theoretical treatment of it beyond Gesell and a little in Keynes. 

Speaking of Gesell and land, Gesell actually did advocate "free land" in addition to free-money. Then as you mention, Tucker adds tarriffs and patents to the usury list. When you examine it deeply, following the thread of Proudhon, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that all property is a form of theft. It originates in theft, and it is immoral to profit from theft, which is what usury is. To take land as an example, you don't think you stole your land because you purchased it from someone who had a legitimate deed. But where did they get it? Trace it back far enough, and at some point someone owned it simply because they took it. Same for the raw materials of other material creations. That is why Henry George advocated only being able to profit on improvements to land, and not land itself. Only our labor is truly ours; everything else we borrow from nature, or, if we have no intention of treating what we borrow with respect or returning it undamaged, we steal.

As for "intellectual property", the inspirations, stories, images, and so on that we claim as our own actually arise from a source beyond ourselves. The Greeks called it the Muse, and I believe all artists and poets sometimes are aware of being a channel for their art, and not its originator. Certainly indigenous artists thought that way. (I have citations for these claims in The Ascent of Humanity.) Certainly, the great stories have been told and retold through history, in slightly different form. All we add to a story is the labor of its telling. Intellectual property too is theft.

In keeping with this, my book is on line in its entirety for free or voluntary donation. I discuss these issues in depth in chapter 4 (www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter4-1.php). 

Charles Eisenstein

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com 

Burn Your Money

This whole concept is something that I have personally neglected in terms of my personal pursuit of it. I think that is because it is too easy to get caught up in the abstract conceptions of a system without engaging in good work etc. I think the other challenging aspect is that anyone can come up with a theoretical idea but without a place to explore and experiment with these it will remain an idea that people will be skeptical of. I guess the hardest part is implementation, how do we begin to implement this in a way that is resilient and beneficial to its participants. I had the idea of creating a strictly accounting currency based upon the idea of a gift economy in which every one would create their own currency to represent their work, they could even print their own. I guess this was totally divorced of the idea of interest or demurrage and was simply a way of enforcing a gift economy in the sense that you did what you wanted to do and were given credit, then you would use the credit to get someone else to do something. But instead of transferring credits they would just be burnt. I didn't really go into the far philosophical or economical impacts of this, but the idea I liked most about it was the burning of the money. This would be a ritual that people could utilize to show how they are in opposition to the current economy. The idea being that there is a electronic way of tracking money, and that you print out your money with some serial code or the like, and then when you use it you can put it on a tray and burn it. Thus showing there is no exchange and that people are doing what they are doing because they want to be doing it, not so they can profit off of an exchange between the both of you. The other issue with a transition is that many poor people already work on a gift economy of sorts. They will share with their neighbors and help each other out, but they don't have enough money and it is scarce and produces poverty as they are constantly threatened by the predator class attempting to siphon any dollars they have before they are able to convert them into wealth. Also so many other aspects of it create a contradiction and points of stress between those who have money and those who don't. Mortgages/rent, electric bills and food, plus don't forget the drug economy, the things that keep poor people struggling to survive and emulating the rich lifestyles promoted by hip-hop and even country songs. How can an alternative exchange system work in a more impoverished environment and how do we negotiate or take back the land upon which we dwell in the most expedient fashion ? That's just some of my thoughts on the matter. I'm glad to see this conversation pop-up. As far as the social networking aspect I've also gotten some wild theories on how to approach that, so I'm happy to see it being mentioned at RS. Robbt

Great post, One thing though

Propaganda Anonymous

I really liked the way you expressed yourself here robbt.

I take issue with only one piece of the reply.

'emulating the rich lifestyles promoted by hip-hop'

Many people mistake most of the music and videos they see and hear in mainstream media outles as 'Hip-Hop'

Hip-Hop is the title for a whole Sub-Culture of existence.

There are many different types of Hip-Hop music, and the one most people tend to associate with Hip-Hop these days is what I call 'Gangsta-Pop'

Which is only on small slice of the pie when it comes to Hip-Hop.

There are sooooo many other Hip-Hop artists out there who promote sustainability and right action.

 

I do not wish to impose upon Charles space her, but if you are curious to learn more then check out my piece about Majora Carter and the Sustainable South Bronx organization to learn about such things I'm talking about.

 

Peace

prop

For sure, I don't mean to

For sure, I don't mean to slander true hip-hop by affiliating it with the gangsta-pop stuff that is blasted on radio stations selling a consumerist lifestyle, but there is a good underground of any cultural expression that gets appropriated by capitalists.

yeah!

I agree! Pessimism = Waste-imism. We only have a finite amount of thought timespace afore we all die. Not much sense in spending that time on pessimism is there? Think about all the solutions to problems you aren't figuring out as a pessimist. Solutions you haven't even thought about yet cause you were just thinking about how effed up it all is.

 

 

obstacles against transition..... security and family

I was discussing this last night and two issues came up that need to make a paradigm shift in the way society currently thinks. The first is an overall security issue that people have with new ideas which can also be alluded to as an underlying trust issue. Most people do not feel secure in having an economic system that from the outright does not perpetually help out the self. What I mean to say is that current economy has the illusion that if I work hard enough and gain enough capital then I too do not have to work someday and live off the growth of the economy i.e. retirement. On the other hand if you tell somebody that they will have to work forever in such a system as the demurrage system it is much less appealing on the surface. For example let's say the demurrage system is in place and an individual saves up 100,000 dollars to retire with. Then you tell them that over time not only is it depleting thru use but also as natural economic effect, They will then ask what is the point of saving?? So I do see some kinks within this but I am sure that this example can be worked out. However I believe the second obstacle in this transition is even worse which is the family concept. This may throw some people off, but too many times I see people in my work place use the security of their family as an excuse to do what may not in an otherwise case be the right decision. By using the previous corporate hierarchical example, some vp of company X needs to make 100,000 profit so the two people beneath him need to make 50,000 profit no matter what or else they lose their job. Now the three individuals in this example may make in an excess of six figures but they will tell themselves, either because of pride or security of their family, I need to do whatever it takes to accomplish this profit margin. This is where the main problem begins in the current economic system. It is at the point where the individual feels the need to make that profit at whatever cost. Being in the corporate world the common answer in these types of situations is that I do this for my family. Now this is somewhat noble in the sense of the classical male hunting for his family but this needs to be taken a step further and have a realization come about that if every family must survive at whatever cost then we will continually have war in the literal sense and economic sense. The idea that there is a free pass to subjugate and oppress others to support your family is a concept that has been absurdly twisted over time. Within the confines of an anonymous corporation there hasn’t in history been such a distance between one’s actions and negative outcomes since maybe the western realm of kings and peasants. Coming around full circle, the way to transition to demurrage is just as radical as changing the minds of the general public that the world is not flat. However, I will help in any way I can. --Bryan Colligan

This is key, in my opinion

"What I mean to say is that current economy has the illusion that if I work hard enough and gain enough capital then I too do not have to work someday and live off the growth of the economy i.e. retirement. "

this is one of the key ideas enforcing the current system. guy debord talks of it in his "society of the spectacle", and i truly believe it to be one of the most harmful aspects of current society.

the basic idea is that, as things currently are, the vast majority of people are working for someone else. this causes a shift towards thinking of 'work' as being 'not-me', and 'not-work' as being 'me'. people begin claiming to need a very unrealistic (not to mention unhealthy) amount 'chill time', as it were. this idea is echoed and amplified by the cultural 'spectacle' promoted by virtually every aspect of our society: that people of power don't have to work, making 'not-work' the goal of life (just one small example: only when a person is at their leisure and 'not at work' are they treated by companies as someone worthwhile, whose opinion matters. "the customer is always right", etc. while at work, they are rigorously subjugated and dominated by their employers, customers, etc).

the general problem with this, right on the face of it, is that nothing in life is accomplished without work. even those things we consider recreation involve labor of some kind. the key difference is that we care about, even love, what we are doing, and so the labor is not toil. even those illustrious fellows who have reached retirement continue to pursue some sort of hobby or whatnot. most of them are terrified of the day in which they can no longer do something useful.

the effect of this is staggering, when the true scope of it is seen: with the ideal of 'not-work' as the goal, people begin to subconsciously rebel against any form of responsibility. when they get off of work, they want to go home and just watch t.v. or somesuch. if they are never willing to do work for themselves, then they will never make anything of themselves...they will only make something of others. to quote longfellow,

"the heights by great men reached, and kept

were not obtained by sudden flight:

but they, while their companions slept,

were toiling upwards in the night."

 

this illusory goal of 'not having to work any more' is one of the key pieces of disinformation that must be dispelled. what we really tend to mean by this is 'when i can work at what i really care about."

i'm not necessarily saying that a bunch of uber-suits sat around in a smoky room and planned this (although it is possible). it is more likely to simply be the system itself evolving to insure its own existence, a natural product of the particular memetic structure and blending which forms our society and culture.

either way, however, it keeps an absurd number of people from realizing the value and satisfaction of a labor born of love. without this -- and combined with the neurophysiological results of the sedentary nature of the resulting lifestyle -- they are filled nearly constantly with the very sense of discontent and doubt of self-worth that leads to out-of-control consumerism.

i think the ideas in this post, and the comments, are key in this as well. the influence of interest -- and the existence of alternative economic models and currencies -- is something that i have been almost wholly blind to. the inevitability of our current system ("if you want to have a medium of exchange, this is what happens") was very squarely implanted in my brain, leaving me frustrated: i felt strongly that the way forward is not backwards...but knew of no alternatives to the current monetary system other than the original hunter-gatherer gift economy and old-fashioned barter trade. that this is an area so filled with fresh ideas, debate, and possible replacements for our existing system is a breath of fresh air to me.

 

"You must *be* the change you wish to see in the world." Mahatma Gandhi

At some point it occured to

At some point it occured to me that the retirement schemes were one of the reasons of demise of family. In older days people had to think about the future - about being kind to people and useful, so when they're sick or old, there will be other friendly people who can take care of them. This natural system has been replaced with government pension so I don't really have to care about people around me - I can be completely isolated antisocial and yet if I earn enough money I can be supported by the country. Therefore the natural links between people are not encouraged - they seem more like a burden in a consumer society.

 

And yet there is a problem, when the closest family takes priority over other people or nature somewhere far away. But family's just an excuse - its all about area of 'my', about building private empire and status. Cause in fact families of these corporates would be much more happy if they could spend some quality time together rather then seeing another sum on the family account. Its all a matter of being aware of it and self-conscious about own motivations. Then always reevaluating these motivations and finding out how much of it is genuine and true and how much is just an outdated social myth.

 

visualchemy.co.uk

Human growth/decay rate 1.33 % per annum

 

Thanks for the article.

 

Agreed. Very good, very clear writing, and very good thinking done there. Keep it up, never stop. Then those contributions may be a gift-currency system in themselves.

 

I'd add a reflection on human ecologically sustainable growth. It equals the material growth which the human spirit causes in the body over a life-time. The human body on average grows to a max of 75 kg over 75 years, before decaying back. Thus 75 kg/75 years = 1 kg/year growth. 1 kg per year over a life-time growth of 75 kg equals 1.33 % per annum. That's the natural blue-print for human growth.

 

The money-supply issued by central comptrollers representing the collective (as different from the Federal Reserve, which has been remarked to be neither - not Federal, not a Reserve) could have a target growth rate of 1.33 %, with the actual issued tender being tagged with the equal decay-rate. That would harmonize financial growth with human growth.

 

Of course, as pointed out with eloquent ease in the article, the change to such an optimum target growth rather than maximum growth would cause a major shift in the philosophical ramifications of finance. A head-spinning change to everything we're accustomed to do (but not that much change in what we actually do – it's more like turning the current life-map upside-down to fit the terrain, and stop having to walk backwards looking over our shoulder). That's only to be welcomed.

 

Very well done on connecting «the culmination of a Ponzi scheme centuries in the making and based on the delusion that a finite planet can support exponential increase forever» with «a shift toward a connected self in love with the world» - that Love which is our natural state.

 

The greatest pyramid-scheme, though, is the population-increase of some 3 persons pr. second (as fast as you can say: «tut-tut-tut-tut-tut-tut...» [= 2 sec]: look around you and think of the room filling with people at that speed...) – some 250,000 a day, 80-100 million a year. Combine that with the reality of at least 30,000 dying a day – 10 m per annum – from malnutrition and hunger, basically starving to death, and you see where all the eager new «investors» in the pyramid-sceme come from. These new-born are people literally dying to enter the scheme. Plus killing, stealing, cheating, lying, abusing others and themselves, and - again all too literally - doing anything imaginable to get onto the pyramid-scheme and stay alive. For every one dying from hunger there are (250,000/30,000 equals) about seven other people growing ready and clamoring to take the dead person's place and economic activities (job, consumption) in human affairs at the bottom of the pyramid. Sordid. But that's how continued population growth can go on benefitting us 1,3 billion in the internet-elite.

 

As soon as this growth stops, the images of the world will quiet down, and all the rank inequalties and injustices being sustained by this growth in people will stand exposed. And it's right that it's been going on for centuries. Now we've reached the outer ecological limits. «We've met our limits and they are US.» We'll all be changing our attitudes soon, from dire necessity. Then we need a host of good, practical ideas standing at the ready to take over. Like in the article.

 

In the meantime, the separatedness has served to focus humanity incredibly at skills of growth (not mentioning the flip side here...). Those aquired skills will be very good to have during the current change-over – which actually began long ago and is slooowly engulfing us. We can count the realization of our potential for self-destruction with the atomic bomb in 1943/45 as the start of the change-over. The viewing of the Earth from the moon with the Apollo-photo «Earthrise» in 1968 was the crystallizing-time for our realization that «we're all one, the one that's us – we're all us». We humans are one slow being – but very forceful when we get going. Now we're realizing where to go, too. It's dawning on us how mad we've been.

 

In the meantime, we must recall that the main beneficiaries of the slave-driving pyramid-scheme has demonstrated an easy willingness to apply violence to suggestions for change to a more generally fair-sharing system of trade and distribution. These forces control 20,000 atomic bombs in the USA alone – plus half the world's military might. So implementation of new systems really needs to flow like soothingly warm water to softly engulf the separating, hoarding attitudes.

 

The change is happening. But we need to follow up ever so gently in putting the new forms into place. Because we're all the cocreators of this huge move from maximizing to optimizing our pleasures. Plus adding a concensual purpose to these pleasures. The UN Declaration of Human Rights provides a good start. As the main feature of the future forever remains that it hasn't happened yet, we can still trip up badly by being stupid. Though we can't fail entirely – human resilience is far too robust for that – getting the change-over wrong could create sooo much extra work for future generations...

 

The attitudes reflected in our economic system is a measure of which insights we're ruled by. Humanity's slowly catching on to this, but we need to get smarter quick. Like changing the default-option for the purpose of incorporation of businesses from max growth to optimum growth. That would actually mean legalizing ecological harmonization. It would also be good to change the purpose of life as reflected in the economy from growth to World Peace of Mind.

 

Laugh,

Sing &

Dance

 

A comment back will be most welcome.

1.33%

Interesting that this number resonates with the biological scaling laws discovered by Max Kleiber in the 1930s. 

Kleiber found that for any animal the metabolic rate is almost invariably equal to the mass of the animal raised to the 3/4 power. That is, the metabolic rate increases on a scale three-quarters that of mass. The same scaling laws were also found to fit many different plants.

75 kg raised to the three-fourth power is roughly 25, or .33 of 75.

six responses...

Re: Robbt, burning money: Your mention of self-created currency reminds me of another important piece of a restorative economy, known as "mutual-credit currencies" or LETS (local exchange trading systems). In these, money is created by the transaction itself, not issued by a central authority nor lent into existence by banks. Basically, if you and I conduct a transaction, I pay by issuing an IOU to the community at large, and you have a corresponding credit owed you by the community at large. I mow you lawn, I now have a balance of +20 and you have -20. Then you bake bread for Joe, he pays you ten, now you have -10 and he has -10. And so on. Currency is never scarce. I discuss it more in Chapter 6 of Ascent.

Re: Don, shift of consciousness: the new currency system is the reification of precisely the shift of consciousness you speak of. It is the shift of consciousness projected onto matter. Or you could also say, it is both a cause and an effect of that shift of consciousness.

Re: Jennifer, point of pessimism: On a deep level, the premises of pessimism are identical to the premises of our destruction of the planet. A key premise is that we are discrete and separate selves in a world of other; hence (1) we are powerless beyond whatever force we can muster, which isn't much as just one person and (2) we must dominate, control, and outcompete nature and other people, since the premise implies that more for me is less for you. So when I feel pessimism or despair, I see it as a symptom that my transition to a new sense of self is not yet complete.

Re: Bkind, savings/retirement: To paraphrase your question (or one of them), you ask how to have a secure retirement if the currency prevents savings. In a nutshell, basically what happens is that during the prime of life, you give much more than you receive. When you are very young and very old, you receive more than you give. This is indeed the case in many gift-based cultures. Old people are deeply respected. In Taiwan, for example, when you get your first job you give your parents a "red envelope" (of cash) each month, and you continue giving them money for the rest of their lives. Then your children do the same for you. I believe something like this happens in Japan too.

Re: chibione, work and chill time: Indeed, the work-play duality is of key importance in this discussion. Ultimately the transition will include a Reunion of work and play, and work and art. You see, when money is not scarce, then the "have to's" and "can't afford to's" that limit the expression of our gifts will wither away.

Re: Ullfern, population growth and aging: I couldn't tell from your comment, but you seem to be aware that the world population is going to start shrinking in a few decades, and probably more quickly than most people think. I like the parallel you drew between physiological growth and economic/financial growth, and would like to add that the pattern of aging we consider normal is actually a product of our beliefs, perceptions, and the lifestyles that spring from them. Aging is poorly understood. I think the human lifespan is about to change dramatically -- and not as a result of technology. Basically, all beings have a lifespan long enough to live a full life. In simpler days, a full life took less time; hence the short lifespans of Stone Age people despite their super health. Today the life path that has prevailed for centuries is evolving. More on this another time. One more thing: you mention the idea of "sustainable growth". To draw again on the physiological metaphor, growth after age 20 or so does not add body mass, yet growth and maturation continues to happen. The same can happen collectively.

Charles Eisenstein

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com

LETS = FAIL

The problem with LETS is that you have the second-most-foolish people in your economy giving ou0t loans to the most foolish people.  Gresham's Law is invioable: bad money chases out good.  If I'm an idiot and I do something for another idiot, then he owes me an hour and I have an hour to spend.  So I go spend the hour on something os REAL value, and take it outside the economy (maybe just by consuming or hoarding it).  The economy has now lost that value, because the other idiot to whom I loaned my hour will never pay it back.

 

I looked at LETS in detail back in the 80's when they got some press in the Utne Reader.  They're complete FAIL.

 

Re: Land

Propaganda Anonymous

Charles, you mention Proudhon and his famous essay where he lists three different definitions of Property.

1.Property is theft 2. Property is liberty 3. Property is impossible I first came across an amazing interpretation of this essay in the back of the Illuminatus! Trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea.

Wilson adds nicely to the understanding of such seemingly contradictory statements by applying the tools provided by General Semantics.

In other words, he contextualizes these phrases in such a cool way that I felt the lightness of being gifted to me by Wilson's clarity of wit. Proudhon is talking about 3 different Types of Property.

Property as theft is that which is created by "the artificial laws of feudal, capitalist, and other authoritarian societies, and is based on armed robbery" (RAW 767)

Property as liberty is that which 'will be voluntarily honored in a voluntary (anarchist) society, and is the foundation of the liberty in that society.'

Property being impossible 'means that property as theft creates so much conflict of interest that society is in perpetual undeclared civil war and must eventually devour itself.'

How you explain Henry George's idea on Land and Labor, it seems like his thought was based upon the economic term of 'The Labor theory of Value'

That it is our Labor that creates Value. Something which Marx believed And so far, I tend to think the same way. I think Douglas Rushkoff is also exploring the idea of VALUE in a cool way.

As far as Intellectual Property is concerned, though, as you say, Artists and Writers may open themselves up as channels and what they come up with as being essentially free.

That's what you're saying right?

Being a musician myself, and feeling that, yes, I am put myself, align whatever needs aligning, to be open to the 'divine' or perhaps I am able to get in touch with those parts of my brain that seem to come across as 'prophetic' and artistic I am Laboring myself (and I know you mentioned that)

I think that we prolly need different types of currency systems for different types of Labor.

Cuz I spent 3 hours a couple weeks ago writing a 26 second verse, and I am not getting paid shit.

Though, some lawyers get a few hundred an hour.

It's all grist for the mill.

Lastly, Great Stuff!

And also Charles, you might find some of the stuff that Majora Carter has to say about some of the things we've been discussing here.

For instance, her and I speak a bit about Community Land issues and one website we talk about is policylink.org.

 I do not wish to impose my stuff in your thread, but I kindly ask you to check out my article on the front page and leave a comment of some thoughts it stirs in you.

Essentially, I am addressing some of these issues of Land and Environmentalism when it comes to city life.

PAZ

Prop

Intellectual property

Yes, that is basically what I am saying re intellectual property: it comes, for free, from a source beyond ourselves. I say it as an artist myself -- I really don't see my creations as mine. Rumi likened the artist/poet to a reed flute, crafted and played by a divine Musician. It would be an affront to the Musician for the flute to take credit for the music. So Rumi urged us simply to make ourselves as clear a channel as possible for the divine breath to flow through us. Anyway, I have discovered that my gifts are truly that, gifts, not anything I earned. I got them for free, and cannot presume to own them. That would be a theft most profane. This is why I offer my books and recordings on line for free, or voluntary payment. It feels great to accept gifts, but feels wrong, feels kind of grating and small, to *charge* money, as if I owned them. 

Ultimately, the desire to make more and more things "mine" is rooted in the pain and loneliness of the separate self, cut off from the majority of its true connected being, and therefore adding more and more extraneous "possessions" to compensate for that lost beingness. Tellingly, we feel "small" when we are greedy. 

 Charles Eisenstein

www.ascentofhumanity.com

now what......

after reading many intelligable comments some of which are beyond my immediate understanding….i.e. micro-patronage (I need to reread this I fully don’t get the concept)…. Solutions in transition are simple steps away… yet extremely difficult. 1) you can NOT change the system from the outside. The current economic system will stay in place until catastrophe, therefore working within system and changing a paradigm shift from the inside out is necessary…. Otherwise I would have joined the peace corp.… so I reiterate Common Ownership Corporations… with this there is direct responsibility for one’s actions and therefore companies will be less likely to dump bleach into rivers to make a profit (extreme example to make a point!!!) plus small groups of workers as a team will be more efficient then subjugated peons of a corporation…. Just reread the last two sentences and let it linger…… it’s very simple and can definitely start the ball rolling in the paradigm shift that needs to occur for the next step of societal evolution… living in DC I see another political start up trying to make it’s mark every other week. Where this is really succeeding though is within the IT field …. Intelligent internet architects realizing that an overhead and a hierarchy is not needed. Which in time will roll down hill to the teachers and then the car manufactures and then down to cleaning services and finally fast food corps. It’s a revolt without war and without a total destabilized economy….. One glorious thing about America, is in the last twenty years is that the education system has raised the general level of awareness and understanding of these karmatic concepts about to happen…. (off topic but quick example would be Disney and the rise of vegetarianism, that’s a whole other topic but..)…. People are ready it will just take a giant snowball to start rolling….. The general public(people under 40) is more aware then us intellectual warriors think. All it will take is for some big wig aka biil gates, oprah, warren buffet, larry Ellison…. To take that leap …. Now that is an optimistic rant… I mean thought --Bryan Colligan

un-money

As appealing as all this sounds, I'm still having trouble visualizing how it would actually work. I need concrete examples.

 

So I will venture a potentially silly question: how would a demurrage system change the rules of the board game Monopoly?

concrete example

It wouldn't affect Monopoly because that game doesn't use fractional reserve banking to create money, and there isn't interest. I'll try to explain concretely. Say you have a job. You get your paycheck, $1000. Every day, that $1000 is worth a little less. Probably this will be done electronically, but if it were paper currency, it would be as if your $100 bill is worth only $99 by the end of the month, $88 by the end of the year. Only fresh money is worth full value, like fresh vegetables!

So, you buy what you need, spending say $600. A friend has some unexpected expenses, say dental work, so you lend her $200. "Pay it back whenever you want, no hurry," you say. After all, if you hold onto it, your money just declines in value. A couple weeks later, your next paycheck is coming soon, and you still have $200, which is now worth only $190 because money decays. You don't want it to keep losing value, and you certainly don't need it with new money coming in, so just to get rid of it you pay your taxes early or give it to charity. Just as if you had 100 loaves of bread about to go stale. You don't want it to go to waste, so you give it to anyone who needs it more. You feel perfectly secure in doing this, because there are many other people who will do the same for you if you have a shortage. There are also banks, which charge a fee for holding your money. I haven't figured out if this would be equal to or less than the demurrage rate. Banks would essentially be people who are good at finding productive uses of money; experts at connecting gifts and needs.

Now suppose you want to buy a big-ticket item like a car or refrigerator. You don't need to save up money, which the system discourages, because the economy will transition to a "leasing economy". Instead of purchasing a car or refrigerator, you purchase what you really want, which is "driving" or "in-home refrigeration". You pay a monthly fee for these services, in essence leasing the hardware. Then, in contrast to today's planned obsolescence, manufacturers would have an incentive to make things that are easy to service and which last decades. 

I will explain more soon. In the meantime, you can read Bernard Leitaer's explanation in The Future of Money. Google it, the whole book is on line. Oh, one more thing -- the currency issuer must issue new money to keep the overall money supply constant or growing in tandem with the economy. 

Charles Eisenstein

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com 

ironic aside

The other day I was in a Barnes and Noble and I thought I'd check to see if they had Leitaer's book in stock. The clerk told me it was out of print. The he checked the computer for used copies. Two hits came up. Each was selling for over $400. Seriously! They must have been autographed first editions or something. Anyway, I thought that was rich, but I'm sure there's a better quip to be squeezed from this anecdote . . .

I also plan on ordering a hard copy of your book, Charles (a relative steal at under $30!). I know they are both on line but it is too hard on the old eyes to read lengthy stuff off a screen.

Inflation

You've just taken inflation, which is bad, and given it a new name, demurrage, and descried the negative aspects of inflation as if they were good.  Sheesh!

Not inflation

With inflation the $200 I earn this week is worth less than the $200 I earned last week (things cost more...i gt less for my money).

With demurrage, the $200 I earn this week is worth more than the $200 I earned last week, which is now worth $199.50 or something like that.

So it's actually kind of the opposite of inflation.

Peace,

Chas 

i always have a wonderful time, wherever i am, whoever i'm with.

gifts and potlatch

Your example of credit card points or frequent flier miles going out of date is the right idea; that's basically how it works. Demurrage money works the same as money today in most ways. It is still a universal medium of exchange. It is just not a very good store of value. Therefore it facilitates exchange, but not accumulation. As for gifts, in the broadest sense ANY gift, and not just those using the demurrage currency medium, are properly in response to a need. The world calls our gifts from us and through us.

Potlatch societies: I researched this extensively while writing Ascent. Apparently, in the late stages the whole system went awry because of the influx of vast quantities of new goods from the White Man, via trading posts and other trading. The potlatch system went through all kinds of contortions trying to accommodate this new wealth. The anthropologists who witnessed and recorded potlatch dynamics saw a very distorted version of it.  

Charles Eisenstein

www.ascentofhumanity.com 

you can't deny the apathy of man......

I again was having this conversation with aware people tonight.

some people think that a

reunification of religion is the answer

and some people think that we just need to be kinder to people and listen...

but after all this jargon ...

is that the underlying economic system needs to change.....

because even if you don't like it right now it is god and rules everything an individual does even if they don't like it....

so when I post I am not trying to disprove these elegant influential ideals ...

I am looking for transittion ..... about them....

.... read these posts again... and realize the...

anger... complaints the discommunication

...from what we need and where we need to go

.... I have thought about this for years....

myopic points of views will not solve anything.

.. before we can extend ourselves into idealistic excellence we need to create a path for the common man to understand to get there..

... I talked to hunger people tonight that are ready

... what they really need is an economic freedom slash idealism....

tell me if you feel me and  I'll tell you mosts lives are a traffic jam......

progression  in society are stopped by :stock market, patent laws, interest, ...... take this idea home with you...

it now takes on average 1.2 million dollars to break into any american economy any more 

.... so then money rules all.

... paradigm shift.... needs to have aware people changing the economic system today versus what needs to happen 20 years from now...

 I completely respect ascent of humanity and what it has opened my eyes to,

 

however my biggest disrespect to chuck must come from my willingness to see from ware people how ready they are.

... and how he can't see how this can come about without revolution ...

.. ask any semi aware person this question.........." do you think what you are doing is what you are meant to do?" .

... and resulting answer is no..... happiness is within the pursuit of it....

 I know I rant and it is ok because I am passionate about this and so is every single person I talk too .

.. but they don't know how to change it!!!!..

... The hippie communs of the 60's and 70's tried to exist outside the system...

 and you cannot now within a global community..

. how do we spoon feed these radiacal ideas without turning people off...

. and it is accoplished within self awarness and sense of team..

.. we need to expose american ..

. capitalists to the undenieable concept that if we continue to extend  ourselves..

.we have to destroy or subjugate to displace our needs.... so what is the answer ??

? non profit communistic corporations that under cut the hierarchial dicotochmy of security versus ethically right decisions.......

.... please read this post and respond/\...

 so I do not feel distant and ranting on this certain subject....

. I truly feel communes will come back in economic value.

.. we are comming to an awareness pinancle that cannot be denied..

. just look at barak and hilary.... --Bryan colligan

revolution

Bryan, thanks for you comments. The realizations you mention and the revolution that will arise out of them are indeed necessary, and that revolution will happen. I think it will happen out of the inevitable collapse of the world we know today. But I'm not sure if I am answering your question. I think you have a question but I had trouble focusing on your comment somehow.

Charles Eisenstein

www.ascentofhumanity.com 

Demmurage equals increased consumption?

Perhaps I am not fully understanding demmurage, but from what I understand of it, wouldn't demmurage actually increase consumerism and unsustainability? If you have money that is "expiring" then wouldn't people feel more compelled to spend it constantly on more and more products, just increasing materialism? Continuing an already dangerous cycle? <br>

DoAn <br>

Interstitial Artist <br>

www.doanart.blogspot.com

Not necessarily

No, it would decrease consumption because the money supply would no longer be under compulsion to grow. In an interest system, the total amount of money must grow exponentially, and along with it must grow the realm of monetized goods and services. This means that new demand must be constantly created, and more and more natural "resources" converted into commodities. The flaw in your logic is in the "more and more products" part. The system would be viable without "more and more". You would meet your needs, but your needs wouldn't constantly grow as they do in today's system. In fact, in a demurrage system the money supply could actually *decrease* as people reclaim functions that have been monetized, for example by growing food in their own gardens and caring for their own children and riding bikes instead of paying for gas. Let me know if I need to explain more -- this is really important.  

Charles Eisenstein

www.ascentofhumanity.com 

Maybe it is changing behavior...

Hi Charles,

I think I understand what you are saying more clearly. I understand what you are saying about an interest-based system and the need to generate more product to keep the flow of money growing. It makes sense that without that kind of system in place the need for constant producing of materials is not necessary. Perhaps, what I am thinking of is more of a behavioral problem rather than a financial one? If we have been living in an interest based society, many people will still want to spend spend spend to get things things things. I guess it will become less of a problem when less things are available to buy.

Have I got it now?

DoAn

Interstitial Artist

www.doanart.blogspot.com

different habits

It is hard to imagine how differently we will think and act when we are no longer immersed in systemic scarcity.  I think much of our present acquisitiveness is a reaction to scarcity, a compensation for it. On the supply side, economic incentives will shift, so that manufacturers will have an incentive to produce things that last. We will have fewer things and simpler lives, but those things and the lives we build with them will be more beautiful. Anything that causes long-term harm to the environment will be prohibitively expensive. There is another major piece to the puzzle I didn't discuss: the internalization of environmental costs, also known as full cost accounting. See www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter7-3.php

Charles Eisenstein

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com 

Alternative Currency VS. No Currency

Propaganda Anonymous

Charles, As far as Artist's being a channel to the divine, and therefore accepting no form of payment for their works.... I cannot say that I fully agree with your position.

I see the Artist not as just an instrument to be used/utilized by the 'Divine' as just a mouthpiece for that spirit. I see the Artist and the 'Divine' in a conversation, therefore both parts are of importance.

Meaning, we are all open to conversations with the 'deamonic forces,' however there is a Craft pursued by the Artist here on earth.

One that takes years of Labor to refine. For example, One cannot just BE Leonard Cohen. Though, he sings 'If it be your will' in a such beautiful way, it still took years for Cohen to craft his 'instrument' in such a way that he, I think, deserves some form of restitution.

So my proposition is more along the lines of an 'alternative' currency for people like this, instead of NO currency. And the alternative currency is most definitely different from the forms of money our economy offers Artists today.

To tie that in with Chibi's comments about 'The Spectacle.' Our current economy seems wildly off base when it comes to the 'Arts' and it promotes a 'Spectacle' consciousness, that inevitably stultifies many artists when they too much of a goos thing (money).

So, in conclusion, my argument is for an Alternative Currency system set-up, instead of a NO Currency system

accepting payment

My position is not to not accept money. It is not to *charge* money. To me there is a huge difference. 

Charles Eisenstein

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com 

Why it won't make much difference anymore

2% of the world owns half of the world's wealth. 1% owns 40% of the world's wealth. The key word is "wealth," not "money."

 

What is money spent on? Stuff or assets. The richest, which require a much smaller percentage of stuff in order to survive, would invest mostly in assets. The middle class and the poor, mostly or nearly all "stuff." Sure, you'd exclude a range of investments that retain dollars, like passbook savings accounts and money market accounts. But stocks, bonds, commodities and equipment would all be demurrage-free. Demurrage is great if you're trying to keep people from hoarding money -- it places an urgency on the need to spend it. But that's all.

 

Now let's go back to the opening paragraph: "Our present monetary system generates a necessity for endless growth, embodies linear thinking, defies the cyclical patterns of nature, and drives the relentless conversion of all forms of wealth into currency."

 

What changed? We still need endless growth (need more companies to invest in! Need more commodities to buy!), still have linear thinking (buy! buy!), still defies the cyclical patterns of nature (it's business, not farming), and still drives the conversion of wealth into money -- it just stays there for a shorter time on it's way through.

 

I wish it were a magic bullet, but it's not.

sorry to say

the federal bank reserve and the rockafellas of the world would not let this happen, not now not ever. if millions of people wrote into their congressman this wouldnt and couldnt happen. if every soul in this country stopped purchasing anything and everything, this could happen. but it wouldnt because they would rather drop the bomb on us instead of seeing us succeed in escaping the prison they have so cleverly made for us. people cant fathom living life without their lust for garbage. the biggest help this government can do for us is to push corn fed ethanol? that is not any kind of help at all. they are purposefully perpetuating a problem and reaping huge profits while we piss ourselves. its not what your country can do for you, its what your country wants to do to you but doesnt have the balls or leeway to do to you yet. //|:|\\ dont say i didnt tell you, but definitely dont say i did

This guy goes into the

This guy goes into the history of interest/usury based economics and how it's completely failed (well, for the rest of us). He proposes a new money solution towards the end, what do you all think? http://www.australia.to/story/0,25197,23040467-060,00,00.html

Good for the poor?

Interesting article. However, I have some real reservations about demurrage currency. Perhaps my understanding of it is a bit short-sighted, but it would seem to me that demurrage currency, because it encourages spending and deters saving, would be detrimental to the poor and to the elderly. I think free-banking is a potentially good direction to move in, and we would probably witness demurrage currencies for certain markets as a result of this, but a wholly demurrage-based economy, I think, would have really negative side-effects. On another note, I am still shocked at how many of us continue to think about the economy as a zero-sum game; if someone wins, another must lose; if one person gains wealth, another must lose wealth. Wealth is created. It's not distributed around an expanding population. At least in the industrialized democratic republics, the poor are wealthier now than the rich were just 200 years ago.