Free Will: The Last Gasp of the Unenlightened Mind

Much of Western ethics, religious and secular, seems to rely on the concept of "free will," the principle that each of us is free to choose -- in both mundane and morally significant contexts -- and thus bears responsibility for whatever choice we make. Choose to indulge your urge to steal, and you bear both moral and legal responsibility for the consequences of that action (particularly if you get caught). And so on.
All this amateur philosophizing endures notwithstanding the withering attack on free will by scores of philosophers, neuroscientists, and biologists. John Locke and David Hume called it nonsensical. Schopenhauer, whose philosophical work is largely about the question of will, noted it is only an a priori perception, not an actual description of events. As Hobbes noted, free will has only apparent reality; in Nietzschean terms, it has conventional truth only; in terms of absolute truth, it is incoherent. In Spinoza's words (Ethics III:p2s), "men believe themselves to be free, because they are conscious of their own actions and are ignorant of the causes by which they are determined." Obviously, if we knew all of the numerous causes of our actions, we would understand free will to be a delusion.
Likewise in the scientific community, which long ago rejected the Cartesian dualism of a somehow immaterial soul interacting with a material brain, and its pseudo-materialistic equivalent, which posits an ego sitting inside the brain (somewhere undetectable by neuroscience) and watching the percepts of consciousness go by like a movie. The phenomenon we call the "mind" is, as Gary Marcus described, a kind of "kluge," a contraption cobbled together from parts meant for something else. Consciousness -- in particular our consciousness of "self" or ego -- is made up of thousands of memes, culturally written software that runs on the hardware of the brain. Scientifically, there just isn't a self, a humunculus hunched inside the brain. (On all this, see Daniel Dennett, Consciousness Explained, pp. 109-15, 253-54; and Freedom Evolves, pp. 304-05).
Ultimately, "free will" is a convention. It is useful solely for describing our perception of, and responsibility for, decisions. As a phenomenon of consciousness, it evolved over time, and it in turn has helped human beings and human culture evolve. In the classic compatibilist perspective, it is coherent as a mental phenomenon, even if it makes no sense absolutely -- and yet since its only function is as a description of a mental phenomenon, no more is required. Ontologically, it has no meaning, because ultimately, everything is caused from without. But morally, ethically, it still means a great deal, because what is "ultimate" does not really matter ethically. It is only important that the proximate causes of one's decisions can be traced to what Dennett calls "recent past... not to infinity, but far enough back to give my self enough spread in space and time so that there is a me for my decisions to be up to." (Freedom Evolves, p. 136)
This is sufficient, ethically speaking. It allows for non-existence of the self, the total determinism of all phenomena, and yet ethical responsibility for one's actions. And yet the unreflective notion that we actually somehow have free will, really, as a matter of ontology, persists. And it justifies an egotism which resolutely opposes every effort to liberate the self from the ego. It is the last gasp of the unenlightened mind.
This is our point: that when "free will" as an ontological proposition is dismissed, realization arises without any negative consequences for ethical responsibility.
Consider: the meaning of "free will" is essentially that there exists an action without any external causes, solely determined by an independent moral agent who, while of course affected by the world, ultimately operates independent of it. The question of whether it exists is thus essentially a subset of the classic philosophical distinction between determinism and indeterminism. Normally, of course, most of us live our lives according to determinism. We expect that when we are ill, there is a cause (material or otherwise) of the illness; that when we see cars, they likely have drivers (and engines); that rain does not materialize out of nothing in the sky. All phenomena have causes; they do not blip in and out of existence on their own (bogus adaptations of quantum mechanics notwithstanding).
Yet most of us live our ethical lives according to indeterminism. We assume that we make choices, and that those choices are "ours," that is, not wholly caused by other things. The buck stops here. At this moment, you could continue reading, or click to another web page -- and of course it seems that the choice is yours. Seems, but not is. Setting aside neuroscience for a moment, it does not even comport with what is directly observed in meditation. Every mental decision is wholly caused by the sum total of causes and conditions which have brought you to the moment of choice. Where else would it come from? Some of these causes may be proximate -- how interesting this essay is, how restless you are, what you have to do in five minutes -- and others may be quite distant: how you respond to philosophy; your gender, race, and class; and so on. It is beyond our ken to identify all these different causes and conditions, but surely they exist. Yet even if a choice seems totally impulsive, even random, it is caused by something, is it not? And whatever that something is -- or rather, whatever the uncountable myriad of somethings are -- already exists as the product of other causes and conditions.
This fact is observable through meditation, which is as close to the scientific method as the introspective mind can get. It's simply clear, empirically, that decisions are phenomena caused by other phenomena. If you want to repeat the experiment, get trained, sit down, and follow the same process, of slowing down the rapid-fire of thought to an extent that the mechanism of causation and choice can be seen more clearly. You will see how involuntary actions which ordinarily pass unnoticed are seen as intricately detailed sequences of desire and repulsion; how just brushing away a mosquito can seem like a choreographed ballet. Whereas normally it seems like "I make a decision," in clear enough meditative states, it's possible to actually observe how the different actions and reactions which usually get labeled as "the self" are evoked when the right conditions are present, how habituated responses dictate action, and how even in instances of choice, the thought processes one goes through are caused by personality, environment, and the rest. Observed -- not merely felt. The smooth clockwork of discursive thought is deliberately interrupted in such contexts, and its mechanistic nature can be observed. There is no self driving the gears -- the self is the gears. It's an emergent phenomenon of the uncountable causes and conditions that are happening all the time. This is what can be observed empirically, on the phenomenal level of the mind.
Of course, it is possible that some weird, non-material, non-provable, non-disprovable, non-observable self is actually calling the shots, but the principle known as "Ockham's Razor" suggests that the simplest solution tends to be the best one -- not least because, after three hundred years, no one has been able to show how material and non-material forms interact. (Famously, Descartes himself suggested that there is a nexus between the material and the non-material in the pineal gland of the brain. Given what we now know about the pineal gland and its role in consciousness, that Descartes chose it is quite remarkable, even prescient. But even electricity and the various energies of the brain are still material.) And no, quantum theory -- that perhaps the soul is able to pop gluons and mesons into existence, and from there, somehow, an independent consciousness influences the material brain -- doesn't work either. As minute as neurons are, they are gargantuan in size compared to subatomic particles blinking in and out of existence, and every thought we have is really a phenomenon caused by many neural connections, in different parts of the brain. Suggesting that quantum flux influences the brain is like saying that an ant crawling across my floor suddenly built my home. All this quantum nonsense actually exists to justify an intuitional sense of the world which is flatly contradictory, directly disprovable, scientifically disowned, and is only around at all because it seems to feel good. (On this point, Ken Wilber's Quantum Questions is a terrific anthology of the 20th century masters of quantum theory all lining up to say that, while it is remarkable, mystical, and amazing, it has nothing whatsoever to do with "thoughts creating reality" or free will or anything like What the Bleep suggests.)
But notice what this pseudo-metaphysical explanation is attempting to provide: a way out of materiality and causality, and a ground for ethics. But our ethical selves would not disappear without metaphysics; most people don't care about metaphysics anyway. What's more, from a nondual perspective, deterministic causality is really our best friend, because it is the release from the prison of self, the last barrier to realization.
From the relative perspective, materialism is the simplest, most logical account of the phenomena of mental processes, including the sense of free will. Our brains, as well as our minds, obey the basic laws of cause and effect. Somewhere, deep within the recesses of the brain, there are memories and learned behaviors, memes and cultural artifacts, that are then combined, in the fraction of a moment, to form decisions. Free will is part of what cultural critics call "the myth of the given": the mistake of thinking that what we are is somehow "natural" or given, apart from cultural and linguistic factors. Of course, the way these factors are combined will be different for each person, thus giving rise to personalities and creativity; the materialistic view certainly does not deny the wondrous powers of the human mind to innovate, invent, and create new "combinations" that have never existed in the world before. Indeed, as Dennett writes (Freedom Evolves, p. 185) our sense of agency is part of "what nature intended," just as much as our instincts are. We really are in the image of God. But not because we somehow stand outside the material universe.
From the absolute perspective, the world arises as like a dream -- but within the terms of that dream, there is only the appearance of self, not a reality of it. What we take to be the "self," a soul gazing out at the world but ultimately free from its influence, is but a mirage. Of course, we have "selves" in that my mind is not your mind, and my body is not your body. But our minds and bodies are wholly conditioned by other things: from genetics and how we were raised right down to how hungry we are right now. As I ponder the next words to write, thirty seven years of experience and thousands of years of genetic engineering are determining the choices that I make. "Free will" has nothing to do with it.
Rather, the "I" is a temporary ripple on a pond of causes and conditions. It is like a motion picture, an illusion of seamless movement caused by the rapid-fire succession of still images. Or, to use Buddhist teacher Joseph Goldstein's metaphor, this phenomenon of the "I" is like the Big Dipper: it's there if you look at things a certain way, and not there if you look at them a different way. Of course, there's no Big Dipper really; but equally "really," that is, from our ordinary, conventional way of looking at things, there is.
Likewise, as a lived, perceptual phenomenon -- a phenomenon, not more -- obviously free will exists. This is the point of comptabilism: that free will describes a phenomenon of our experience, but nothing more than that. And that is sufficient for all the ethical and jurisprudential consequences of free will to fall into place.
This is why Rabbi Akiva's statement in the Talmud that "everything is foreseen; yet free will is given" is not some Zen-like paradox. It's describing just how things are. In actual reality, everything is "foreseen," if by "foreseen" we mean by an omniscient God who, unlike us but like Laplace's demon, can actually know the billions of causes and conditions influencing each of us at every moment. In the Buddha's words, "there is free action, there is retribution, but I see no agent that passes out from one set of momentary elements into another one, except the those elements [themselves]."
Some believe that without free will, we are mere biological instruments, with no spark of the Divine -- or, in semi-secular terms, no human soul. But from a nondual perspective, this argument is theologically backward. If only we were able to release the need to see ourselves as separate from the rest of the cosmos! The autonomous soul isn't the gateway to God; it's the gateway to delusion. This is precisely what the Jewish sages call the yetzer hara, the selfish, separating and, occasionally, evil inclination that sees the self as the center of the universe. Whereas, when I'm able to see, just a little bit, that my choices and feelings are the results not of my autonomous "free will" but of a vast Indra's net of causes and conditions, the overwhelming majority of which I cannot know -- not only a sense of perspective, but also a sense of peace, can arise. It is what it is, and it will be what it will be -- ehyeh asher ehyeh in the Hebrew -- and my choice is simply what to do about it.
This kind of letting go is not a detachment from the imperative of justice, but a revitalization of it. Which perspective is more likely to lead to pursuing justice, one centered on my self and my needs, or one which sees the arising of 'my needs' as just one more strand within a web of causes and conditions -- a web often given the name of God? Personally, I'm a lot less selfish when I'm not self-centered; it seems like a tautology, really. Nondual action is the same as dualistic action, except without a selfish motive, the notion of a "doer," or the resentments and hindrances that inevitably accompany self-involved activism.
Of course, too much equanimity can lead to a kind of ethical laziness. But if we're really serious about looking closely at the mind, then lot of what passes for equanimity and balance -- not to mention "realism" -- is actually selfishness in disguise. Detaching from the delusion of free will isn't detaching from the world; it's attaching oneself to it, and that makes ignoring its suffering in the name of domestic tranquility all the more difficult.
Nor is this erasure of the self an erasure of individuality. Letting go of the delusion of free will doesn't mean that, beforehand, I'm a creative, idiosyncratic, sensual person and afterwards I'm a null set. Everything still arises; it's just seen for what It is, rather than what it isn't. This is why some of the most enlightened teachers around today are still very much Brooklyn Jews, or British contrarians, or whatever their histories have shaped them into being. They may not even seem nice at first, and I'm sure that sadness and anger still arise. Only the phonies are always smiling.
Free will is an illusion of the well-functioning brain, a trick of the mind, and oftentimes the joke's on you. Let go of it; you've got nothing to lose, and Nothing to gain. And there's a big difference between nothing and Nothing, even though I can't quite tell you what it is.
One Last Miracle
This should be the end of the inquiry: that letting go of the delusion of separate self helps one see the relative world more clearly and surrender into the absolute. But if we are speaking of ethics, there is one peculiar miracle left.
It is a simple one: that compassion is natural after all. That the surrender into Being, into God, does make us kinder, even without the heteronomies of law. When we quiet down -- just silence, just stillness -- and see things as they are, compassion, lovingkindness, and wisdom appear on their own, without any oughts from us. When you really get to who you are, underneath all the neurosis, alongside the deep wounds from childhood, you find yourself to be a compassionate person who, just like all the rest of us, simply wants to love and be loved, and to live life right.
At least, that's what I've found. And it's what, in near-unanimity, generations of other contemplatives have also found. We're not finding "goodness" in any particular ethical or moral sense. I love the stories of Ikkyu, the enlightened Zen monk who, after his enlightenment, would carouse with prostitutes and get drunk. That's what he found, and he exasperated the more traditional authorities who had a set idea of what an enlightened person is supposed to look like. In reality, an enlightened person doesn't look like anything in particular. Like the much-overtold story of Zusya of Hanipol, the sage looks not like Moses or Jesus, but like Zusya. Like her true self.
But we do find a natural goodness, that wants to help, that no longer needs to defend the boundaries of self. It takes work, but the good heart does emerge.
It is also, sweetness notwithstanding, a radically different view of the path of justice from the view that we must repress your deep, dark instincts, because they are evil, or corrupted by Original Sin. The view I am articulating is: get in touch with your deep, supposedly-dark instincts, and bring them all to Light. It is also somewhat dangerous: on a societal level, we obviously need moral laws, rules, and the rest. It is not reasonable to expect everybody to go off on extended retreats and get to know their true natures. Doing so is a privilege, conditioned by economic ability, as well as by the way our lives have happened to play out. (Many people call that 'karma.') Tragically -- and let's not underestimate the nature of that tragedy -- contemplative practice is not available to everyone. And, obviously, most people don't desire it either. So all the usual ethical rules and regulations remain in place, and in debate.
But when it can happen, the contemplative practice of seeing clearly -- not superimposing moral thinking atop a rotten foundation, but just seeing what is -- leads to more justice and more peace. Simply by seeing clearly who or what we are, we become more gentle, more compassionate. Automatically, as it were. The sense of the sacred arises naturally as well. We are radically good at heart -- some might say, we are God at heart.
I can't convey to you how transformative it was for me to see not merely that "all people are good at heart," as Anne Frank said, but that I am in particular. Me! The clumsy, fumbling, needy me -- the ironic, cynical me -- underneath, or rather alongside, all those pieces and strategies is really a very simple loving person who is -- gasp -- good at heart. This can be a very embarrassing thing to realize, let alone express. But it's embarrassing because we suppose that the real Anne Frank is the Hallmark Anne Frank -- i.e., that knowing people to be good at heart leads to mushy thinking, or Polly-Anna optimism. But that's not true at all. Knowing that I am good at heart does not cloud my judgment about when I'm too clever, inconsiderate, or "spiritual" -- it clarifies it. It does not bring about arrogance; it engenders humility.
Anne Frank was not naive. But imagine her knowing, even as she was victimized and brutalized beyond our capacity to conceive, that what was happening was not the evil essence of humanity, but a mistake. Imagine a surrender not to despair, but to the unfolding of Being itself. Imagine the slightest loving smile, held even amidst tears.
Image by uBookworm, courtesy of Creative Commons license.
Tweet- 7-20-09
- Jay Michaelson's blog
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Comments
Western Vedanta
Thank you for that, we need more of the non-dual perspective.
The ideas seem consistent with another non-dual work which has been called a western Vedanta--the book is called "a course in miracles" and the recent books by Gary Renard help bring-out the essence of the teachings.
que crickets chirping.
Because it is.
I enjoy reading the words of others that have begun to understand, too few & far between.
thank you for that read Jay. ..........................................
1 size fits all...
Just 'one' dream ..can split the seam... prepared show the whole of life to glean .....
Just a partial mind ......your's,,, you'll find.... full of aspects of creator kind .....
Just a passing phase remind .... ... .how really .. we'er kept deaf & blind .....
Just 'one' world each ..you'll see,, like me, reality & perception neither random nore free...................
~Became The Story~
mmmmmm...
"Could it be true that there is no id, no fundamental Devil Within, no yetzer hara, or evil impulse, as the Talmud calls it?..."
http://www.focusingresources.com/articles/thoughtsonrae.html
"The SACRED (whatever that means) is surely related (somehow) to the BEAUTIFUL (whatever that means)..."
Gregory Bateson
Blinkers
In RAW's 'Illuminatus' trilogy one of the main characters, high on pot and pseudo-zen, performs an introspective search for an inner 'identity' and concludes: "There's no-one at home".
To which the 'guru' in the situation answers: "Strange. Who's conducting the search?"
A citation from this article: '.......how habituated responses dictate action, and how even in instances of choice, the thought processes one goes through are caused by personality, environment, and the rest. Observed -- not merely felt. The smooth clockwork of discursive thought is deliberately interrupted in such contexts, and its mechanistic nature can be observed. There is no self driving.....'Who's doing this observation. The clockwork itself? The article author refers learnedly from western classical philosophy, so I'll allow myself the same indulgence of bringing in artillery from 'authority'. Bertrand Russel, mathematician and philosopher of some repute, denied this possibility of the clockwork observing itself.
While I wholeheartedly support the wiev, that 'What the bleep' is a new-age mess of 'bogus adaption' of quantum mechanics, I find it difficult to accept, that quantum physics and scientific cosmology should be brushed aside totally.
Causality is a characteristic of cosmos. And in this article the author does his best to present a 'scientism' model 'proving', that cosmos is all that exists (doing it the usual scientism way by simply defining this as truth).
Already having presented a somewhat incomplete version of meditational experience (citation from article): "If you want to repeat the experiment, get trained, sit down, and follow the same process, of slowing down the rapid-fire of thought to an extent that the mechanism of causation and choice can be seen more clearly.", arguments against the presented ideology has been neutralized.
If he'd followed it up to the contemplation level of meditation, the author would have arrived at the same conclusion as many of the rest of us have. Causality stops at one point (but then this observation wouldn't be convenient in the scientism clockwork model presented here), and in this respect goes well along with theories of non-cosmos.
Disregarding this aspect of meditation, the 'science of the mind', is at best uninformed (concerning what mystics and asian philosophy have to say about it). At worst manipulative in the true tradition of belief-system argumentation.
I, and others with me, have from time to time presented models alternative to the one here. Models which approximately are much more in accordance with pragmatic observation and 'logic'.
"Obviously, if we knew all
Games with words are fun
It hurts my brain thinking
Since you mentioned...
I'm reading Quantum Questions at the moment (page 214 - almost done) so I'll restrict my comment to the following comparison of each work of words (A comment, which should not be taken personally by either author because it reflects the aggregate "Me" *whomever that might be*, and since there are so many facets of “Me”, and since I only have available to me the consciousness of this current lifetime with which to project an image or composite picture of who is typing these words at the moment, which are after all only a symbolic representation of direct associations flashing through my brain (?) which are occurring faster than I can possibly witness them, and which could probably be dissected sufficiently to eliminate all imagined conclusions from the realm of possibility... If I were just to add this additional thought, or that additional thought to the synaptic storm raging at this very moment, perhaps my conclusions could become just the opposite???…):
I find myself just as confused while reading Jay, as I do while reading Ken (Wilber). The difference seems to be (although now I must doubt even this conclusion based upon what I’ve just read) that when I’m reading a particularly dense paragraph by Wilber I wish I could better understand him, but when I’ve read a particularly dense paragraph by Michaelson I’m glad that I don’t.
What does that mean???
Path of Clarity
It means you need to slow down.
Deal in ideas that make sense to you, that you can understand, or those ideas that can begin to make sense to you, where you intuit value. If something doesn't make any sense at all, find a text dedicated to the thing that is hard.
Keep a journal, write in your books. Keep indexes in both, and add to them. Track intriguing references. Ask questions, find answers -- within yourself, in experiences in inner & outer worlds, and in texts & conversations. Get clear on what you understand & what you don't understand, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. Revisit texts later, and you'll see deeper into it.
Always remember: "My way of thinking works." Let no fancy word intimidate you.
It takes time. We cannot really skip steps, though we can sample a territory to see if it feels like the right way to go. We don't have to understand everything.
"Not to clear up the mystery, but to make the mystery clear".
It means this ( at least for me):
My twin brother, not totally unrelated to G Spencer Brown's twin, has suggested that we all make a grid with as many quadrants and subquadrants and hyperbolic twists and turns as we desire and fill it with as many dots as we possibly can. Then place this well filled grid on the floor and stand on a chair about five feet away and observe it. He said this is what it means to have a Theory that Explains Everything. He is writing a book entitled, "Knowing it All is Nothing at All."
http://www.angelfire.com/super/magicrobin/lof.htm
GRIDLOCK: ODE TO WILBER & MR. ED
The grid became full:
All was said.
Everything known
and explained
and understood -
the end of that.
But everything was the same:
All unfulfilled.
Everything separated
and covered
and dead -
the end game.
Along came a horse:
Wilber wanted it to talk
and explain everything.
Someone sang: "I am Mr. Ed"
Plop, plop dropped the manure.
And then came a seed
Carried inside a bird dropping
Rolled by a dung beetle -
It sat and said nothing.
A flower opened without words
without knowing
without understanding -
unboxed, unspoken, unwritten life.
Bradford Keeney
"The SACRED (whatever that means) is surely related (somehow) to the BEAUTIFUL (whatever that means)..."
Gregory Bateson
It is a shame that science
Egodeath
Great, now I have to try to let go of something that doesn't exist in the first place? And just how in the name of the gods am I supposed to do that - an act of will?
<shakes fist> Damn you Spinoza!
Also, I almost forgot to mention this excellent article on the notion that bringing awareness to our conditioning gives rise to the possibility of meta-free will, and so on ad infinitum.
Antinomy and Coincidencia Oppositorum
I have to disagree with the author. I think someone could make an equally logical and rhetorically sound statement for the opposite point of view (as bogomil has done by quoting RAW).
I don't think I am as well versed in Western Philosophy as the author (at least not the aspects of it discussed here), but I do remember Kant's concept of Antinomies. I remember the debate between fate and free will being one of them. The idea of an antinomy is that someone can argue with equal validity for opposing ideas. So when an intelligent atheist and theist start arguing they will never reach any consensus. They will each make logical statements and at the same time they will each dissect the other's flawed logic. Consequently, I remain agnostic.
This concept was meant to show the limits of reason and logic. I think by favoring one side of an antinomy we do ourselves a disservice. We are not computers. We do not see things in only 0's or 1's. When the author says he knows free will is an illusion, he is displaying the same kind of egotism he wishes to deride. Logic and reason have their limits. Sometimes we just have to throw our hands up and say "perhaps highly evolved apes can't figure it all out." We can learn a lot more from exploring a mystery than from defending one side of a coin that could flip the other way when looking at another argument or set of facts. It sounds highly arrogant to say this is the last gasp of an unenlightened mind, or that you know what someone else will experience in meditation. Perhaps your current viewpoint is the last gasp of an unenlightened mind, perhaps someone else has reached further than you.
Furthermore, if I had to arbitrarily pick one to defend. I would go with free will over fate, or the mechanistic view you promote here. It gives your life a lot more meaning and begs more responsibility.
Jack Frost in Grant Morrison's the invisibles:
There’s no difference between fate and free will. Here I am; put here, come here. No difference. Same thing.
Also, Never Speak In Absolutes.
not an absolute statement btw
Denying Free-Will: The Last Gasp of a Materialistic Mind
Firstly, to other commenters. Despite the author's lip service to Vedanta, the views expressed here are very much at odds with the basic tenants of Vedantic philosophy. The author's views are in fact most definitely anti-Vedantic, or simply materialistic.
Secondly, the autor's argument, despite all the references to mysticism, is stuck in a quagmire of materialistic and deterministic bias. The references to mysticism are confusing and not entirely on the mark. The title of his article more than anything smacks of arrogance. Perjaps that is why I felt compelled to respond. If anything the author's copious use of materialistic memes could just as easily be seen as the last gasp of a materialistic mind in an ever expanding conscious universe. Although I must at least credit the author only denying free-will. Some of this bent are so stuck in the materialistic paradigm that they inisit consciousness itself doesn't exist!
To put it briefly, the author misses *entirely* the possibility that consciousness itself is not caused or created by materialistic forces, but is the other way around with consciousness being all there is, of which the material universe a manifestation of it. From the Vedantic perspective this is totally "duh". Until the author, or anyone else arguing against free will, is willing to at least entertain that possibility, having a debate about whether free will (in any meaningful sense) exists is futile. I find it very telling that the author is all too willing to reference Daniel Dennett, without so much as even a mention of David Chalmers work. That neglect more than anything else shows Jay's bias in not addressing the other half of this very important and crucial philosophical issue. I addressed some of these so-called free will "problems" a few years ago here:
http://astranaut.org/library/super-free-will-metaprogrammin.php
In short, I've come to the opposite conclusion - Free Will is all there is... all the way down.
what has free will?
So who is the 'I' that has free will?
You say - 'The question now needs to be asked, if we are nothing more than our programs, imprints and conditioned reflexes, then who is the "we" who is doing the programming? Who is the metaprogrammer? Some might remain steadfast and say that this new higher you is also just a collection of programs, or metaprograms.'
I wasn't clear about what your answer to that was.
If we are pure consciousness is there something inherent within that consciousness that wants the bodymind to become more conscious and more intelligent in it's programming?
Imprisoning Will
Without free will there would be no individuality
... since there is only individuality ... then there is "only" free will.
When our free will falls into a "pattern" ... coherent, or otherwise, we call it "fate" "destiny" "pre-determination"
When there is no recognized patterning .. we call it liberation/enlighenment/salvation
One cannot choose a topic of discussion withoit "will" ... yet ones will is never really a determining factor outside of "cooperation with others use of will.
Free only to be individual ... personality itself {Caitanya - Sanskrit} ... has no other point of reference outside of itself ... {'lest the state of "maya" or illusion} .. hence free ... only to be itself
... when we try to impose our will on others ...{maya}
In other words only when will is surrendered {compromise/consolation} ... does fate become "reality"
There is always action and reaction {karma} ... yet within each of us is the quantum "zero pint field state" of awareness/consciousness ... "before and after" all choice.{dharma}
Like all hurricanes have an eye ... all will has an absolute sense of freedom at it's core ... yet all manifest choice {all hurricane winds} ... have "some" predictability ... just never to the absolute degree.
Hence the limitation of all observable scientific method .. degrees always and only being relative to a particular standard of measurement ...
{Biblical "Tree of Knowledge ... original sin = judgement .. the very "supposed" measurement of worth {misnomer}
The Tree of Life ... of which all is a part ... "freely grows" no matter how many Adams apples are chewed, swallowed and or philosophized
Reality??
Clearly we have reached the edge of our present subject, where standard methodologies as e.g. science or common perception has little or nothing of definite value to add deductively. But please notice that this in my opinion doesn't justify an elevation of speculative hypotheses like 'observer created' universe etc to absolute truth.
As a post won't allow me to expand on the basis of my own conclusions, just take the following as personal opinions.
I have a kind of Cartesian fundament, but instead of centering on 'thinking' (which has some unhappy exclusivity narrowness), I prefer to start with: "There is 'is'ness' ". I'm aware, that I exist.
But then this 'is'ness' is can be experienced in numerable ways depending on assumptions, methodology, faith or whatever.
My point is, that each of the resulting models of existence represent a certain 'spectrum' of observational methods and possibilities. The restrictions of a specific observer allows only for observation of part of existence. In the human sphere we have e.g. the interesting contradiction arising from what we ordinarily percieve through physical senses and what science (in my opinion convincingly) tells us. Example: What we sense and believe is 'matter', is something different from what science says is 'matter'. What we sense is by science described as interaction of different electromagnetic wave/particle fields, whereas 'matter' in science is quarks, of which we have very little direct observation.
This is just one example, but should suffice for my present purpose: While I deny an observer created existence, I take observer-INTERPRETATED existence as a very likely answer. This combines the more attractive aspects of both a theoretical ultimate reality with the observation, that we seem to spend a lot of our existence in more or less illusionary states.
To avoid a conflict of interpretations: 'Existence is illusion', but also 'colliding with a lorry can be very 'real', I take the stand, that the common denominator is 'consciousness', awareness of existence, and depending on what our consciousness includes, we will experience varying (and usually convincing) 'realities'. Depending on the extent of our consciousness, we live and believe in various versions of 'reality', but this doesn't in any way influence a possible ultimate reality.
So both the 'ego' and Nirvana in buddhism exist and represent different perspectives on 'reality'.
As I said, take this for a personal opinion, but there are some fascinating possibilites in it. Especially a consideration of micro- and macrocosmic theories. IS there an event horizon? Is 'reality' on the other side then. The answers will have not only philosophical/theological consequences, but also enormous ideological and social consequences.
As this would lead to a far too long post, hopefully readers will choose their own angle on this. Not least Pippalayana, who really is an honoured friend and enemy, whose opinions I always respect.
Re: unconfirmed
This is said without any trace of sophistery, but I'm not sure what you mean with traditional definitions about self. To my knowledge there exist quite a few, very different, such definitions.
So an inspired guess on my part would be, that you with 'self' are referring to something alike the buddhist 'ego'. If that's the case, then we are of the same opinion, as I'm as hardcore dualistic, as you get them. For me anything associated with the 'ego', cosmos or related existenceforms is 'error' (as opposite to reality).
That this wasn't so obvious in my earlier post comes from, that I to a certain degree tried to paint a canvas of options instead of dishing out unsupported final 'truths'. It can make my posts circumstantial and hard to get through, but at least everyone will have possibility to share a common background for communication.
E.g. am I NOT a mahayana believer, and while I'm forced to admit some truth in samsara=nirvana, I still consider it as an expression of approximate truth, where nirvana is approximately more true than samsara. And please don't take such an attitude as an expression of bewildered and pointless 'relativism', where everything and nothing is true. I certainly arrive at conclusions, sometimes even controversial ones.
Re 2: unconfirmed
And? I have clearly stated, that I am a dualist. Proposing non-dualism as a doctrinal 'truth', doesn't in any way add or subtract to the validity of my opinions; not before non-dualism is changed from doctrine to something supported by whatever evidence there might be. ....I'm willing to listen.
" What does change, is the perspective... when self --regardless of how 'self' is defined -- is absent from the picture, the whole thing becomes event... "
Even 'verbs' can be a manifestation of dualism. But this interesting point apart, I have yet to meet ANY religion, philosophy, system or ideology except hinayana, which doesn't sneak in 'self' (this/that, opposites, choices.....) somewhere in the doctrines or practices. But then, hinayana will still have the lorry problem, and certainly is dualistic in the sense, that samsara is NOT nirvana.
I am curious to know, how you as a person can avoid lorry collisons in a non-dualistic way. First there are the lorry and you: Two objects. Second: There's the will to avoid certain activities (lorry colliding), instead preferring another option (no lorry collision). One option better than the other; obviously; therefore this and that.
I may add, that while I'm no Buddha or Lao-Tze, my meditational experiences has often led me totally beyond the 'ego', with a complete qualitative awareness shift emerging. So I'm not talking only theoretically.
On the Lorry Premise
Possibly consider, indirectly from the "Quantum" perspective, how to possibly view at least this one point.
In the somewhat famous/imfamous "What the Bleep" movie, they clearly illustrated the commonly excepted point of how when a basketball apears to contact the concrete and bounce ... well from the point of view of coventional physics there is no real contact ... just opposing charges of electrons.
The sound and/or touch sensations just submoleculsr activity ... subject to translation by the mind
Hence the law of inertia ... action and reaction
.The self/selflessness of both the basketball and/or concrete oppose each other ... hence the apparent "re-action" {re-ality}
Which brings one to the very definition of the term{s} re-al and re-ality
To "re" ... {syllable}... whatever ... means ... well loosely real would mean "part of all" is reacting ... or being reflected ... due only to the focus, or loss of focus of a/the self.
"Reality" could similarly loosley be defined as a particular context of the nature of "all" {-ality}... as it appears in re-lation to a point of focus ... a vector ... a self
No matter how hard modernistic humanism tries to standardize "reality" it perpetually, individually and/or collectively remains but a re-action to "quantum posibility"
Hence the supposition of self ... individual or collective ...
There is no reality or realness without re-action or re-flection
... or again "re" something or other ... indicating the very distinguishing of one context from another.
{re-ply} ... pliable only in relation to self ... hence re-spond
The self at the expense of event ... or event at expence of the self ... a "who" ... or a "what"
A cuious side point ... if you will ... remember the Buddhist Monk, who set himself on fire in protest of the Vietnam war ...
As one views the photo ... his remaining seated with legs crossed while the flames engulfed him ... not "re-acting" ... well is this the perfection of self ... or selflessness
A point of reality ... or no point to reality
seriously?
FREE FROM WHAT??
Re: Gyndy
As very few people experience or know 'freedom' to any significant degree, it can only be defined by exclusion (just as with transcendence). This way 'freedom' is absense of rules, regulations and causality. As the most common example of such causality-creating directives can be mentioned the macrocosmic, 'natural' laws as we know them, examplified in my lorry-example in a former post.
Freedom and causality isn't a black-or-white situation, for most humans freedom is at least a potential, but as Joan said in a post, some people make the choice not to exercise the possibility of free will.
Your post centers more upon freedom in a mundane, social context than on the philosophical or theological aspects, but in my opinion, the fundamental principles are the same on all levels though the manifestation and perception varies.
Whether ultimative freedom exists is so far beyond our present possibilities of experience or knowledge, that answers will only be informed guesses, but my own experience implies that we can at least create much more freedom than we usually have.
This sounds paradoxial, but a relatively simple answer is, that freedom can generate more freedom (considered as a growth process), just as freedom for all practical purposes can terminate itself.
Re: Pippalayana
Hi Pippalayana, finally I have gathered my scattered wits enough to answer you.
I follow you without objections on your quantum-based observations on mundane, macrocosmic manifestations. What appears to be the various aspects/parts of cosmos are defined by, and probably exist through, other aspects of cosmos. Cosmic existence can be likened to mirrors of different forms and sizes sending endless reflections between them; .....and reflections of reflections.....and.....
And all are translations of mind.
Byt maybe we arrive at different conclusions, when getting to the level of quantum possibility/options. I've got the feeling, that quantum possibilty/options is kind of last word for you on the subject. I believe, I remember you once writing, that there is no need for the concept of transcendence??, and at least in your recent post you write that: "There is no reality or realness without re-action or re-flection" and that is the center of our possible divergence.I would like to go to and beyond quantum possibilities, unless you object, and consider the consequences. There do exist some fascinating and somewhat legitimate hypotheses on what you write (if I understand you correctly), but none of them seem very convincing to me.
First of all the idea of parallel universes, which I don't like, because it's in the end only is a sophisticated, complex and extensive version of mechanistic determinism. Whether you operate with subject/object at the quantum possibility level or not, parallel universes are (unless there DO exist some selective mechanisms) only a manifestation of the same determinism as formulated in the clockworh universe of materialist reductionism. Only ALL the options are actualized in the parallel universe model, not just the one-possibility (or alternatively god-given) single outcome.
Continous creation is another possibility. When polarities 'cancel' each other, the outcome only results in new polarities emerging from the quantum foam 'beneath'. I object to this possibility, because it disregards macrocosmic models of the event horizon/the big bang theory and the likely existence of enthropy. Besides, the two c.c. hypotheses I know of (admittedly both macrocosmic such), Fred Hoyle's and Hawkin's, were both were retracted by the originators.
Finally there's 'randomness', which I not only reject, but utterly reject, as it, when it comes to the point, is nothing but a cosmetic betterment of 'free will', only created to bypass some tricky questions in a way acceptable to scientific mythos. What I read of chaos theory some 5-6 years ago looked very fumbling, mostly it was 'organised chaos', which I found contradictory.
In short I can say, that an event horizon suits me much better, but maybe it's reasonable to wait for your answer first, so we won't get caught up on to many tracks at one time.
The Only Event There Ever Was
I use the language of quantum thought only to the degree it has become the language of the day.
It is not theoretical ... the lorry does not touch what appears to get in it's way ... simple physics ... opposing charges ... that appear as "reality" ... quantum rearrangement only.
Remember it was never I who postulated the "Lorry problem" ... just throwing two cents in.
My quantum views are only used to balance out philosophical debate. Not to determine it.
I have never posted any direct comments on paralell universes.
One point you may have overlooked, is that from my perspective the quantum perspective only has premise in relation to manifestation ... not potential.
I have never had even the slightest difficulty or confusion in any/all of the self/selfless ... form/formless ... wave/particle aurgumentive discussion ... whether ancient philosophy or modern physics.
listening or hearing ... knowing or knowing about ... understanding or overrating
Every subject "is" an object ... every object "is" a subject.... 'lest opposing discussion
There is no discussion on either end of the spectrum that determines whether this is true or untrue.
The perpetuaion of supposition is the antithesis of my premise, yet you have this backward sense of always making it sound as if the oppposite were true
I agree with you about "randomness" ... chaos being nothing less than the transitional stage between levels of order.
However without being omniscient it is easy to loose context on given variables ... 'hence whim .. fancy ...
I have no problen with the "event horizon" premise ... so many of these views are just views .. from different perspectives.
The only event there ever was ... tis 'but still happening.
Each and every self that could ever be ... perpetually remains uneventful unto themselves
Re: ...only event....
Pippalayana,
it was far from my thoughts to imply criticism of you or to put words in your mouth. In a general and non-personal way I tried to look at the various hypotheses build around Q-mechanics, some of which are taken as evidence for this or that theory.
Thanks for your reversible subject/object comment. In my opinion it describes the weakness in the 'observer-created' universe better than my own mirror allegory, in which the posssible and potential 'observer' is upgraded to the totality of the whole of cosmos, when it comes to the formation of cosmic 'natural' laws. Not to cosmic fragments. While it probably is possible for a single fragment of cosmos to transcend cosmic laws, it doesn't happen so often.
Honestly, I'm at a true loss of understanding (not trying sneak in some hidden criticism) about how to reconcile an event horizon with "the only event there ever was...tis 'but still happening". I have tried to conceptualize it, but mostly it emerges as a paradox.
This is the same line of reasoning used to deny god
The fact that our decisions