Evolver Social Movement: Building communities, spreading new ideas, and inspiring transformation.

Driving on Water

sati
car waterthbm.jpg

Can water power a car? Denny Klein seems to believe so. He has invented the water-powered car. According to his website, “electricity from your car's battery can separate water into a gas called HHO (2 Hydrogen + 1 Oxygen). HHO, also called Brown's Gas or Hydroxy, burns smoothly and provides significant energy - while the end product is just H2O.” Unlike bio-diesel, whose conversion is only possible in diesel engines, Kline’s hydroxy-fueled cars can be easily converted on standard gas powered vehicles. Perhaps soon we’ll all be driving on water.

 

 

Story suggested by Andrew Amargo

 

 

Image via Flickr: "Fire and Water" by peasap

Comments

Stanley Meyere a fraud?

Submitted by Fabrice on Wed, 06/18/2008 - 18:06.

See Lawsuit @ wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer

 

If someone came up with a really effective run-on-water engine, clearly the military would be first in line to exploit it. Maybe if wouldn't reach mass market for a while, but they wouldn't be able to hide it forever...

Not funny

Submitted by Fabrice on Tue, 06/17/2008 - 15:16.

You call that a "website" ? It's just a big one page advertisement for what is almost certainly a hoax. The page is so cheesy and the "(John - you can consider this free advertising!)" blows it all. Obviously the same guys are running an ad in Cragislist, so they're just promoting themselves.

 

The first video made the rounds many months ago. The next one at the CES looks more serious, and seem to have been slapped on just to add credibility.

 

I always thought of realitysandwich as posting great quality content, to see this being posted under "Tech" is a little sad :(

 

Aren't there laws in the US to stop people from making money from such advertisements?

 

FYI

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/13/genepax-shows-off-water-powered-fuel-...

 

This one costs "$18,700 -- not including the car" but now you can buy a DIY manual for 110$. >_<


 

check this out!!!

Submitted by Daniel Pinchbeck on Tue, 06/17/2008 - 15:06.

 The water powered car seems to be becoming a reality.

 

http://oglobo.globo.com/blogs/rebimboca/post.asp?cod_post=108863

 

Watch the Youtube video from Reuters, which shows a demo H2O powered car made in Japan.

A friend just demo'd water electrolysis for me in LA.

This could be a spectacular development.  

"Will the transformation."-Rilke

Question

Submitted by oxidizedmetal on Tue, 06/17/2008 - 16:58.
Doesn't the electricity from electrolysis have to come from somewhere? Doesn't it take quite a bit of energy to break the molecule apart. Unless we charge our car batteries with solar panels, (which is a big possibility) aren't we back to square one. Can you get more energy from electrolysis than you can from just a battery? Why not just an electric car? Am I missing something?

watch the video

Submitted by Daniel Pinchbeck on Wed, 06/18/2008 - 02:04.

according to the news video, the japanese prototype runs entirely on water and does not need electricity from any other source.

if this is true, why isn't it front page news around the world?

"Will the transformation."-Rilke

because its not true

Submitted by vivifidal on Wed, 06/18/2008 - 03:14.
why can't you eat the reality part of the sandwich occasionally, Daniel? Dreaming is a wonderful thing but most of us seem to share a world where the laws of physics and chemistry apply.

The Water Conversion Project

Submitted by Ryan on Tue, 06/17/2008 - 17:11.

Almost every car company has plans to be releasing a hybrid electric motor/combustion engine car over the next couple of model years. This is a great movement, and there is the hope that all cars will go electric and fueled by renewable sources, but what do we do with all the existing internal combustion engine cars? About 16 to 17 million new cars are sold in the US every year

(http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_cars_were_sold_in_the_US_last_year)

and, while the numbers range, there are up to 250 million cars in the United States

(http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_cars_are_there_in_the_US).

If all the cars sold from here on out operated on electric motors rather than internal combustion motors, it would require about 15 years to switch out the fleet. This is no where near the real situation because the Toyota Prius was one off the best selling cars last year and sold 181,221 cars, so it will likely take a couple of years just to ramp up to all NEW cars to be electric-in-nature. The article above is about an old idea a lot of people are investigating, converting petroleum-running cars into running on a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen and this has been show to be feasible a number of times over and a conversion kit for every make and model is like with a minimum of conversion parts.

Historical elements: 1780's: Alessandro Volta built a toy electric pistol ([1]) in which an electric spark exploded a mixture of air and hydrogen, firing a cork from the end of the gun.

1806: Swiss engineer François Isaac de Rivaz built an internal combustion engine powered by a hydrogen and oxygen mixture.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#History)

Hydrogen combustion engines are possible and available:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4563676/ http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/09/20/230837.html

We have been using liquefied oxygen and hydrogen for a while in our rockets/crafts:

http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxlh2.htm

Here is one Wikipedia view of hydrogen combustion engines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#Hydrogen_engine

And here is another:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_car#Hydrogen_internal_combustion

Its clear that a combustion engine works with hydrogen and oxygen, but where to get the oxygen and hydrogen? Well, water seems to be a good source, it has both hydrogen and oxygen in it. The process of electrolysis, an electrochemical process, splits water into oxygen and hydrogen with electricity on an electrode design. Yes, the energy source for this system is stored electricity that can be made from renewable resources.

The next question is, if you have electricity, why not just use and electric motor? Well, most of the cars on the road now have combustion engines in them and water electrolysis to H2 and O2 to combustion provides a quick way to convert the existing cars rather than waiting for the whole petroleum-based fleet to be phased out by new cars.

Now, the question is, can an on-board, battery-based water electrolyzer system be designed to electrochemically split water into oxygen and hydrogen at a rate that matches the fuel rate requirement of the combustion engine? Such a system could enable the conversion of the existing planetary car fleet from petroleum to water+electricity. More designs to follow. Loves.

its a pretty decent way to store energy for on demand conversion

Submitted by vivifidal on Tue, 06/17/2008 - 17:57.
however, I think we need to scale back our attachment to the car as a concept for urban and suburban travel, Such vehicles should be reserved for use in remote areas where human and animal power are too slow and mass transit is impossible.

here are some reasons

Submitted by vivifidal on Tue, 06/17/2008 - 18:23.
Cars collide,explode and take up a lot of individual resources to maintain, great as a hobby, not so good as something you rely on. Mass transit provides an opportunity for social interaction, there is no more endearing archetype than that of  fellow travellers sharing tales, its the sweetest metaphor for life and when compared to "hey, look at that other human in the bubble, his bubble is in the way of my bubble...grrr," well you get the picture. Efficient engine design is cool, but what I want to see is better transit architecture and design, a sort of socio-ergonomic approach to how we get from place to place that takes into consideration the human elements of why we move around and the accidental meet-ups that teach us so much.

cars

Submitted by Saf on Wed, 06/18/2008 - 02:58.
I am not an engineer..so, if you are looking for a new car design read no further. However, I will say that the recent move by the Federal Wildlife Reserve to give oil companies immunity from prosecution against any harm caused to Polar bears due to drilling is an idea of the power wielded against clean fuel. Polar bears were recently placed on the Endangered Species list. Now it looks like no one has permission to kill them except oil companies. The machine is well oiled and political. Even if a new, more efficient, cleaner car is invented...how long will it take before it is legally sold in the U.S.? Maybe it is time to study international trade agreements, marketing, as well as engineering, to get what we need. Someone is sleeping around. When we are paying $5.00+ a gallon for gas, or need heating fuel, how many of us will give a care about a polar bear?

Polar bears will!

Submitted by vivifidal on Wed, 06/18/2008 - 03:04.
Maybe we should give polar bears access to oil company boardrooms the same way oil companies have acces to polar bear habitat, just a thought. Polar bears are one of my totem animals so maybe I'm a bit touchy on this subject...

Misrepresentation

Submitted by Swoopicus on Wed, 06/18/2008 - 18:28.
It is not so, guys. There is no such thing as a car that runs solely on water, as the concept that is being reported is missing a few key details, and thus this car is being misrepresented. (I am a physicist, BTW) The way this car is being said to function is that as long as water is in the tank, it will continue to run by means of splitting water into hydrogen + oxygen. The hydrogen runs through a fuel cell (protons running through ion-selective mesh and electrons through copper wire) to another side where it meets up with oxygen to, once again, form water, generating enough energy to split water again and have enough left over to put a car into motion. So, the reaction works like this: Energy (from someplace...) splits water -> 2*hydrogen + oxygen -> water + 2*energy (1 to run car, 1 to split water) -> process continues... You start with energy splitting water, and result with water and even more energy. This is not reality, this, my friends, is magic and violates the laws of physics, thermodynamics, and conservation of energy. The only way this could remotely work (not violating any laws, that is) is if it were a fusion reactor, which, taking into consideration separating out deuterium and other unwanted waste products, is nowhere near efficient enough to run a car. What I've heard about this car, and I could be wrong, is that there is a chemical membrane through which the water passes, thus supplying enough chemical energy to split the water. The real questions then become, what is this membrane made of, how long does it last, what sort of environmental impact does the manufacturing of said membrane have? This company sprouted up publicly overnight. I'm not saying they're full of shit, I'm saying this is being misrepresented. If there was a device that miraculously made energy from water with nothing else, don't you think that we'd have heard of this car, or that perhaps people and businesses would be lined up around the block selling their kidneys to get a hold of one of these?

Polar Bears

Submitted by Saf on Wed, 06/18/2008 - 19:41.
Yes...Polar Bears in oil/corporate boardrooms...lol! I love that idea! Let them bring in the round of C*cacola with a grin!

Our reality is still consistent

Submitted by Ryan on Wed, 06/18/2008 - 20:21.

Let's clear the air a little about the Japanese car linked in a post above. The concept is solid, here is the explanation:

 

A number of companies are releaseing hand-sized, 1-time fuel cells. One company is Medis Technologies that has a small, portable fuel cell (non-rechargable, for now) which operates by a similar technique that the Japanese car does.

 

http://www.medistechnologies.com/

 

There is a consumable powder, sodium borohydrate, or similar compound, that when added to water will chemically react to decompose water into oxygen and hydrogen. This is a flavor of chemical catalysis and can be considered straight up chemical water decomposition. The water decomposition products of oxygen and hydrogen can then me sent into either 1. a fuel cell or 2. a hydrogen combustion engine.

 

I feel the article is quite clear on how the car operates, what they do not immediately point out is that the membrane, which likely has the chemical catalyst embedded in it, would need to be replaced after serving to decompose water after all the powder has been consumed (i.e., the powder is the fuel). Now, the cycle analysis requires us to see how much energy and what source of energy is required to make/regenerate the powder.

 

Regardless, the concept is solid and so is the fuel source. There are other ways to make oxygen and hydrogen that can be combusted in a hydrogen combustion engine; electrolysis fueled by electricity stored in a battery, for instance. Here, magic is turned to science with novel system configurations and familiar components of water and electricity.

 

hho

Submitted by superfly on Thu, 06/19/2008 - 01:15.
tRUth?ok so browns gas works! HOWEVER not all ways of creating it are made the same. some problems... burnt out batteries and alternators, oxygen sensors that get in the way by dumping more fuel than needed and well not all designs are made the same. if you are into this and want to design your own cell check out Joe cells, Moe Joe cells and the stan myers cell; then get on ebay and look at what is being sold. to produce ample hho gas you need to run a pretty significant current through the water. This heats up the water which in return will create the need for more current which will then put too much of a strain on your engines electrical department so the end need is to cool your water. To do this people are using PC raidiators and fans and circulating the water/fuel. Although Stan Myers did come up with a way to run a car off nothing but water no one has been able or been willing to to fallow in his foot steps. HHO is amazing and to me personally it is as if the properties of water changed by magic somehow. I mean think of it like this.. all life needs water to live.. most all that is water is hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen has an atomic weight of 1 nothing could possibly burn more efficiently on this planet to the point that water has 5 times more potential energy in it than gasoline! WOW!  Another wow:  what goes into your gas tank, only 20% of it goes into forward motion.   Its amazing, potential unlimited. So now that we know who killed the electric car think of how crazy it is to have such a rug as HHO and modern electricity be going on. I mean HHO or Browns gas was discovered in like 1840 right. thats pretty much the entire bad part of the industrial revolution. Time for a new revolution. Magnets are also in this arena. look up N. Tesla and free energy. We were all duped by the money power seekers, they buried tesla's ideas cause no one could control them, no one could profit and so that which could be profited and controlled off of was chosen instead. again TIME FOR A REVOLUITON>.. or more like time to join the revolution. In the name of the future create the present. im in how about you?

Thanks for the info.

Submitted by oxidizedmetal on Thu, 06/19/2008 - 15:54.
Wow, I am surprised at the response from my questions.  I have a lot of reading to do on this subject.  Although I am skeptical that running a vehicle on water is viable,  I am not ruling out the idea that it is a part of the puzzle that could save us from downward spiral.  So, thank you again for your response. 

for the skeptics...

Submitted by reverendiscordia on Thu, 07/17/2008 - 16:12.

for those that feel we need to see some corporate guru to mass produce such a product in order to legitimize its viability should think twice.

i don't mean to get all conspiratorial on your asses but the powers that be will turn as much profit as they can from the current automoblie paradigm before we see ANY movement to a new one.

some of you may argue that we're beginning to see this shift now. just look at GM's new line of "greener" vehicles right? but lest we forget they already had an electric car and decided to silence it...for that time being.

i'm not an engineer nor do i have a PHD in physics so perhaps you feel i'm not in a position to speak on the subject. regardless of what you feel remember that there are pioneers outside of the mainstream who have made such technologies work.

with that said i direct you to review some of the work that has been done in the field of magnetic electric energy. i use the following individuals only to provide you with some examples of those potentially paving the way for a new "energy paradigm" outside of the mainstream.

http://www.energyfromthevacuum.com/ http://www.cheniere.org/

we no longer have the time to wait for someone to tell us such technologies are viable...we know they are.

the question remains, who will choose to realize them?

Oxyhydrogen KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Submitted by acwhuff on Sat, 08/16/2008 - 10:34.
I am part of a research team working on this science, and here are some of my notes: "Deriving fuel from water is a process of radiolysis: the refracting of water into two constituent gases, HHO and OH, by applying a pulse width modulated DC current in a water-filled capacitor, taking advantage of the inherent energy locked up in the molecular bonds between hydrogen and oxygen. "Brown's Gas" "Rhodes' Gas" and "Klein Gas" are names for the product of this dissociation of water. A more accurate term for our purposes here would be "oxyhydrogen". It is a compressed stoichometric mixture of atomic and molecular hydrogen and oxygen. To use oxyhydrogen as an energy source, it is detonated by a spark and immediately forms water vapor. Due to its stoichometric nature, oxyhydrogen normally burns with a perfectly neutral flame. It is produced on demand, so no storage is needed. It is lighter than air, so no dangerous concentrations of gas are likely. Since it uses no oxygen from the atmosphere, it can be used safely in closed spaces. It cannot explode; in fact, it implodes upon ignition. One liter of water produces 1860 liters of gas. When this gas is ignited, the volume is reduced to the original one liter of water, a characteristic very useful in the creation of near-perfect vacuums. It has been supplied at 40-60 psi, and has produced at the rate of approximately 340 liters per kilowatt of DC electricity. (Yull Brown) Oxyhydrogen contains no hydrocarbons, and so is therefore incapable of producing carbon dioxide, or any other atmospheric pollutant, when ignited. Very high temperatures are obtainable when oxyhydrogen is ignited using a standard torch. Oxyhydrogen is strongly ionized, and exhibits many of the same characteristics of plasma, at a small fraction of the cost. Oxyhydrogen is completely safe to generate and use, and is pollution-free. Prof. Yull Brown of Australia has obtained patents for oxyhydrogen's application with welding devices. In 1973, Prof. Brown found that if hydrogen and oxygen were carefully mixed in the same proportion found in water, they would burn safely. He developed the first high efficiency electrolysis cell to produce his unique gas mixture. and found that it burned faster with higher efficiency than any other gas mix. He theorized that the temperature of the flame is determined at the surface of the material by an interactive process between the hydrogen molecules and the atomic bonds in the object being welded. He argued that this is essentially a controlled thermonuclear reaction. While this generation of constituent gases into monomolecular forms has previously been referred to by Prof. Yull Brown, Dr. William Rhodes and Dennis Klein as an electrolytic process, we feel that the term radiolytic more appropriately applies, since the required pulse width modulated DC current for maximum efficiency necessitates propagation in the radio frequency range. We believe that the correct frequency or frequencies employed in activating the radiolysis process is/are the key to maximum output efficiency. The potential value of perfecting this technology for fuel applications would have a profound and positive impact upon science, and upon all levels of society, especially as regards self-sufficiency due to ready access to sustainable and renewable fuel. " The more people know how this works, the less individuals will be targeted for silencing. This is solid science and it's easy to understand. It has nothing to do with the so-called Laws of Thermodynamics, because these principles are not involved in any way to make the process work; radio frequency is. If you want true change, educate yourself and others around you. Don't wait for someone else to figure it out. And don't think Wikipedia is giving you the whole story on any kind of "new" or alternative science. They're not. It's unfortunate that most of us have been led away from our own intellects and have been badly miseducated. Think for yourself. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.

I'm no physicist

Submitted by Edutainment on Sat, 08/16/2008 - 12:43.
Are you saying this discovery has circumnavigated the entropic watershed of renewable fuels?  Aside from the mineral resources necessary for producing the machines that would be fueled by this process.  You're saying this is a truly neutral circuit with no waste?  If so, a simple applause is not enough.  A layman's response is much appreciated, if at all possible.      

Response to "Edutainment"

Submitted by acwhuff on Sat, 08/16/2008 - 17:55.
In layman's terms: If by "entropic watershed" you mean "more energy out than in", then yes. I would need a further clarification of "neutral circuit" before I could give you an accurate answer to your second question. Our team is by no means the first to do this, nor are we the only ones doing it. There are many, many people already at work on this independently with varying degrees of success and efficiency. We have merely sought to understand the work of those who have gone before and improve upon it. For your own edification, googling the search terms "water fuel", "hho", "brown's gas" or "oxyhydrogen" will start you on your path. For more graphic explanations, go to youtube.com and look up the same search criteria. Thank you for your comment! It is much appreciated!

Re: acwhuff

Submitted by Edutainment on Sat, 08/16/2008 - 20:30.
There was no "second question." Just a failure on my part to restructure the first, which you answered sportingly. Thanks, And my search begins!

Re: Edutainment

Submitted by acwhuff on Sun, 08/17/2008 - 01:05.
You are most welcome! It warms the cockles of my heart to see another self-possessed soul off in search of knowledge. May your search be fruitful!